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I agree with all of this except the Ajinca part. Not a big Ajinca fan either, but I have seen him be good against a specific type of big - a Hibbert, a D. Jordan, a Gasol, etc. I think he has been better this year and will be better next year than WitheyOriginally Posted by Eman5805
@mcnamara247
On this current team (with our options at center), we could do much worse at starter than Withey.
If you Jimmer it, they will come.
I am trying to follow the argument. It seemed to have started out real strong, then has gotten softer and softer over time. What is the argument? That SF should be a bigger concern this summer than Center? I agree.
Is it that if we have a chance to get an upgrade, like say Kosta Koufos for Pierre Jackson, that we should not take it because Withey can be nearly as good in that role. If that is the argument, I do not agree.
I also would assume more playing time at Center from J Smitty and Ajinca than Withey next year. So, best case scenario, Withey is our 5th big. Ideally, we get a big like Koufos and he is our 6th big.
The argument is don't spend what little resources we have on a center when center isn't as big a concern with the development of Withey, knowing that as good as your going to get with those resources is the very player Withey is developing into. It all seems more redundant than anything.
Are you suggesting Koufas as your 6th big? And if so how much would you be willing to spend on him?
Last edited by UNO Gracias; 04-03-2014 at 01:19 PM.
No, I was saying if you could get a Koufos for a Pierre Jackson, you pull that trigger, even though he isnt great. As is, we would go into next year with our centers being: AD, Smith, Ajinca, and Withey. Unless Monty is willing to play AD at Center for 25 minutes enough, that is not enough IMO. Need to target a guy in a Gordon deal or move a guard for one. No, we can't get BOTH a SF and a C in FA, but there are other avenues than FA
Why waste precious resources bringing in a marginal talent (Koufas/Mozgov) when we already have a marginal talent that is developing (Withey)? You would be better served holding that little trade piece (Jackson) until you could get something that would really get you where you want to be.
Mosgov/Koufos may be marignal talents, but Stiemsma/Ajinca/Withey are all overall negatives when they're on the floor. Mosgov/Koufos are average.
.......if healthy
@Jabberwalker
Here is a list of centers better than Mosgov and Koufos.
Tyson Chandler
Brook Lopez
Jonas Valanciunas
Joakim Noah
Andy Varejao
Andre Drummond
Roy Hibbert
Larry Sanders
Al Horford
Al Jefferson
Chris Bosh
Nikola Vucevic
Marcin Gortat
Dwight Howard
Tiago Splitter
Marc Gasol
Javale McGee
Nikola Pekovic
Robin Lopez
Enes Kanter
Andrew Bogut
Deandre Jordan
Demarcus Cousins
By looking at the number of guys on this list, Mosgov, Koufas are not average (but neither is Withey, he is just cheaper).
I would say you are looking at the cap space we have wrong. It isn't some nonrenewable precious resource, we just have room to make our roster better, I agree with MM that if we can get an upgrade at C on a good deal we should definitely take it, and if C isn't as big a concern as say SF, wouldn't we need/want to not be cheap in fixing the SF hole? If we can get a good big on a good deal, and then Withey develops to be just as good, then great! we have two good serviceable bigs on the cheap and we'll have more money to address sf later on.
We don't need a world beater to play C, we have two great front court players already in Ryno and Davis, and we don't need someone to take shots away from other guys, so if we can get a guy to fill that role then yea we should pull the trigger.
never assume
The talent is marginal because it's limited. The boxes that Mozgov and Koufos check are different than what the other marginal bigs we have do. Again, right now outside of AD we have bigs that either foul too much, rebound too little, or both. Mozgov has a 15.9% TRB% (16.4 last season) and fouls at a rate of 4.5 per 36. Koufos rebounds at an 18.3% rate with a foul rate of 5 per 36. Are they elite at what they do? No, but their competency in 2 things we need from the center position at the same is at least 1 tier better than our current alternatives. You are either really overrating Withey or are not fully thinking about what he's good/bad at and what roles we need our "starting center" to fill.
Kosta Koufos 18.3%/5
Timofey Mozgov 15.9%/4.5
Robin Lopez 14.6%/2.7 (12.9%/2.8 as a Hornet)
Jason Smith 12.6%/4.3
Ryan Anderson 12.4%/2.6 (last season)
Alexis Ajinca 17.3%/7.0
Jeff Withey 13.4%/4.0
Greg Stiemsma 13.0%/6.2
Could Withey be as good as Mozgov in a few years? Sure. Mozgov was a 23 year old rookie with a decent amount of international experience before coming into the league and he had similar numbers to Withey as a rookie, 13.2%/5.8, but there's no guarantee that he will and it's unlikely that he's ready to become that guy next season. Smith isn't good enough at what we need our "starting center" to be either, so really the guy potentially taking Withey's minutes next year is Jason Smith if he's brought back, not trading for a Mozgov or Koufos. Koufos/AD/Ryno would get the bulk of the minutes, but over the course of the season there'd be plenty of opportunity for both Ajinca and Withey to keep developing assuming Smith doesn't come back.
On the subject of giving up ANY asset to get a center, I say no. Until we move Gordon. I'd 100% rather give every cheap asset to move Gordon than be stuck with him and give up an asset for an average C.
Players cannot control which minutes they get. I'd love to see Withey match up against starters, but he doesn't get that shot.
Withey excels compared to our other centers and most other rookies in EFFICIENCY. He does not take inefficient shots, limits his turnovers, limits his fouls, and gets decent rebounds on a per minute basis. He changes shots around the rim, and blocks at a better than average level. His athleticism is limited, but none of Monty's centers (other than Davis if you consider him a center) has had above-average athleticism. Finding an athletic big man who won't get pushed around that we can afford is a pipe dream....
Every center who has played in this system has been overmatched on defense. I think Withey has been less overmatched than Lopez, Stiemsma, or Ajinca. He recovers infinitely better than those players. Lopez and Ajinca are solid against slower bulkier bigs, but that is a low percentage of the centers we face.
I think Withey does a creditable job bodying up most rebounders even though he may not get the rebound as often as we'd like. Our other bigs fail at that most of the time.
All that said, I fully advocate adding a complementary banger whose specialty is rebounding. More important, I advocate letting Stiemsma and Smith walk. Stiemsma for obvious reasons, and Smith because he does not stay around the basket and is ineffective at rebounding and boxing out. Replacing those two with one rebounding and defensive specialist would do wonders. I would then like to see Monty base starting role and minutes on efficient production and defense. Let the best man play when it counts. That has not happened this year.....
Withey is more than capable as a backup C in this league. I hope he can develop into more than that, but he is leaps and bounds better than Stiemsma.
Also, am I the only one who likes Ajinca and think he has been a great addition to the gaping 5 hole that we have? The dude came up off the street and has had some solid games and played way better than Stiemsma could ever dream of. I think Ajinca & Babbitt have been two of Dell's better moves during his time here.
In addition, Stiemsma is the worse player that has been on the roster since this team has came here. Brockman or Amundson should have his spot if not for the awful guaranteed contract.
Between Ajinca and Ayon, I've been quite impressed with our franchise's overseas scouting as of late.
Are there any other GMs in the league who have had recent success with bringing in foreign NBA players? I'm genuinely curious.
Yes, a large number of GMs have been successful in bringing over foreign players. A good size portion of the NBA now consists of foreign-born players and they are spread across multiple teams. Especially if the measurement for success is Ajinca and Ayon.
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