Davis vs The Field

[da ThRONe]

Here in lies the problem, you HAVE been proven wrong. You were wrong from the jump, your "evaluation" of Davis was an epic failure, but your pride (or something else) won't let you admit it.

The way you see it must be blinded by foggy glasses or something, because everyone sees it but you.

Wrong about what? His inability to create for himself? 95%+ of his points are assisted or put back baskets. His poor post and primeter defense? Both those things have been shaky. I was wrong about his hook it's much nicer than what I saw at Kentucky.

So what can you point to after 2.5 games and say I was wrong about? Are you saying he's a franchise changer after 2.5 games?

[BP225]

Like how you made the classic "gang mentality" comment, then proceeded to make my point for me. That was really interesting to see.

That's because you are correct in that it's too early for HOF declarations but you also seem to enjoy being contrarian and won't give an inch before you're forced to so I doubt your objections are purely objective.

[AD23forMVP]

68.4% of his baskets are assisted on. For a rookie that is fabulous.

The list of guys that get more help with assists are:
Antawn Jamison
Charlie Villanueva
Terrence Jones
Troy Murphy
Kevin Garnett
Jared Sullinger
Taj Gibson
Tiago Splitter
Lamar Odom
Serge Ibaka
Elton Brand
Jason Smith
Brandon Bass
Gustavo Ayon
Rasheed Wallace
Thomas Robinson
Ryan Anderson
Tim Duncan
Al Horford
David Lee
Patrick Patterson
Blake Griffin
Tyler Hansbrough
DeJuan Blair
Chris Bosh
Emeka Okafor
Meyers Leonard
Byron Mullens
Marc Gasol
Samuel Dalembert

That's just a small list of the guys that get more help than Davis, there are 43 PF's that get more help, but I even through in a few C's in that list above, and again we are talking about a rookie.

As for his defense in the post, he's allowing just 0.83 points per play, shooting 40%, and scoring 33% of the time while turning it over 17% of the time. For comparisons sake KG is averaging 1.0 ppp, allowing 64%, and scoring 50% of the time. Al Horford is at 1.04 ppp, allowing 55%, and scoring 50% of the time. Tim Duncan is at 0.87 ppp, allowing 48%, and scoring 44% of the time. Elton Brand is at 1.04 ppp, allowing 67%, and scoring 53% of the time. Do I really need to continue? It may not be Dwight Howard good, but it's just fine, especially for a rook.

[Da_Beez_Neez]

I do agree with him about harden though. Everyone was

{Mod edit-It's a family site}

and saying he was an MVP candidate after only 2 games.

lol

[Coughka]

Wrong about what? His inability to create for himself? 95%+ of his points are assisted or put back baskets. His poor post and primeter defense? Both those things have been shaky. I was wrong about his hook it's much nicer than what I saw at Kentucky.

So what can you point to after 2.5 games and say I was wrong about? Are you saying he's a franchise changer after 2.5 games?

But why have say Andre Drummond rated above him, if Drummond is just as bad if not worse at all of those things, as well as an inferior offensive player without Davis' motor or court awareness.

It seems like you judge Davis on different criteria from the other prospects.

[da ThRONe]

That's because you are correct in that it's too early for HOF declarations but you also seem to enjoy being contrarian and won't give an inch before you're forced to so I doubt your objections are purely objective.

If anybody in this discussion that has given any it's me. However nobody at this point should. For the believers they are going to point at the stats. If you aren't a believer you'll point to how he's getting his production.

[AD23forMVP]

And your belief in how he's getting his production is wrong as well.

Besides, when has anyone ever complained about a player that can convert on offensive rebounds?

[da ThRONe]

68.4% of his baskets are assisted on. For a rookie that is fabulous.

The list of guys that get more help with assists are:
Antawn Jamison
Charlie Villanueva
Terrence Jones
Troy Murphy
Kevin Garnett
Jared Sullinger
Taj Gibson
Tiago Splitter
Lamar Odom
Serge Ibaka
Elton Brand
Jason Smith
Brandon Bass
Gustavo Ayon
Rasheed Wallace
Thomas Robinson
Ryan Anderson
Tim Duncan
Al Horford
David Lee
Patrick Patterson
Blake Griffin
Tyler Hansbrough
DeJuan Blair
Chris Bosh
Emeka Okafor
Meyers Leonard
Byron Mullens
Marc Gasol
Samuel Dalembert

That's just a small list of the guys that get more help than Davis, there are 43 PF's that get more help, but I even through in a few C's in that list above, and again we are talking about a rookie.

As for his defense in the post, he's allowing just 0.83 points per play, shooting 40%, and scoring 33% of the time while turning it over 17% of the time. For comparisons sake KG is averaging 1.0 ppp, allowing 64%, and scoring 50% of the time. Al Horford is at 1.04 ppp, allowing 55%, and scoring 50% of the time. Tim Duncan is at 0.87 ppp, allowing 48%, and scoring 44% of the time. Elton Brand is at 1.04 ppp, allowing 67%, and scoring 53% of the time. Do I really need to continue? It may not be Dwight Howard good, but it's just fine, especially for a rook.

Of Davis' 18 made baskets only 1 has been unassisted or not a put back this season.

[da ThRONe]

And your belief in how he's getting his production is wrong as well.

Besides, when has anyone ever complained about a player that can convert on offensive rebounds?

Not a complaint it's an observation. If you are telling me I'm wrong Davis is a player an offense can run through based off of 2 games I expect to see him do it first.

[da ThRONe]

But why have say Andre Drummond rated above him, if Drummond is just as bad if not worse at all of those things, as well as an inferior offensive player without Davis' motor or court awareness.

It seems like you judge Davis on different criteria from the other prospects.

Drummond IMO has a base to be a guy the offense runs through. I don't just look at stats I look at skillset. While Drummond didn't do it often when he did he looked like an unstoppable force.

[AD23forMVP]

and? Since when do you ask your PF (your rookie PF) to create for himself?

Just admit it, you WANT him to fail more than anything just so you can say you were right.

But again, Davis is getting 5.3 looks per game at the rim, only three players are getting more (Zach Randolph, David Lee, Glen Davis). That doesn't happen by accident, knowing how to operate around the rim is a skill. The top 8 players at PF in getting looks at the rim per game are Randolph, Lee, Davis, Brow, Duncan, West, Gasol, and Thompson. Those 8 guys get their baskets assisted on 56%, 47%, 74%, 55%, 71%, 59%, 42%, and 61%. Can you guess which one of those is Davis? I'll let you know which one isn't, the 71%. That 71% of baskets assisted around the bucket is the great and future HOF Tim Duncan. Are you going to try and take something away from him?

I don't know if you're just a troll, your expectations are to high, or if you're knowledge of the game is really just this low. Honestly after your "running the offense through him" comment I'm wondering what your comprehension level is like now as well. Who said anything about running the offense through him? And how many times is a rookie the guy the offense runs through?

[Pelicans78]

and? Since when do you ask your PF (your rookie PF) to create for himself?

Just admit it, you WANT him to fail more than anything just so you can say you were right.

But again, Davis is getting 5.3 looks per game at the rim, only three players are getting more (Zach Randolph, David Lee, Glen Davis). That doesn't happen by accident, knowing how to operate around the rim is a skill. The top 8 players at PF in getting looks at the rim per game are Randolph, Lee, Davis, Brow, Duncan, West, Gasol, and Thompson. Those 8 guys get their baskets assisted on 56%, 47%, 74%, 55%, 71%, 59%, 42%, and 61%. Can you guess which one of those is Davis? I'll let you know which one isn't, the 71%. That 71% of baskets assisted around the bucket is the great and future HOF Tim Duncan. Are you going to try and take something away from him?

I don't know if you're just a troll, your expectations are to high, or if you're knowledge of the game is really just this low. Honestly after your "running the offense through him" comment I'm wondering what your comprehension level is like now as well. Who said anything about running the offense through him? And how many times is a rookie the guy the offense runs through?

All of the above.

[Luke's Pelicans]

Drummond IMO has a base to be a guy the offense runs through. I don't just look at stats I look at skillset. While Drummond didn't do it often when he did he looked like an unstoppable force.

I see you trolling....

[AD23forMVP]

Drummond IMO has a base to be a guy the offense runs through. I don't just look at stats I look at skillset. While Drummond didn't do it often when he did he looked like an unstoppable force.

Either you've gone off the deep end or you don't have the first clue who Andre Drummond or Anthony Davis is.

[da ThRONe]

and? Since when do you ask your PF (your rookie PF) to create for himself?

Just admit it, you WANT him to fail more than anything just so you can say you were right.

But again, Davis is getting 5.3 looks per game at the rim, only three players are getting more (Zach Randolph, David Lee, Glen Davis). That doesn't happen by accident, knowing how to operate around the rim is a skill. The top 8 players at PF in getting looks at the rim per game are Randolph, Lee, Davis, Brow, Duncan, West, Gasol, and Thompson. Those 8 guys get their baskets assisted on 56%, 47%, 74%, 55%, 71%, 59%, 42%, and 61%. Can you guess which one of those is Davis? I'll let you know which one isn't, the 71%. That 71% of baskets assisted around the bucket is the great and future HOF Tim Duncan. Are you going to try and take something away from him?

I don't know if you're just a troll, your expectations are to high, or if you're knowledge of the game is really just this low.

When have I ever said he's going to fail??????

It's impossible to have an intelligent debate when you guys add things to the agrument that I never ever said. I say Davis isn't a franchise changer you hear he's a bust. I say he's number 7 in a draft I believe will be looked upon as probably the deepest ever and you read I want him to fail.

He's a good player. I already spoke about his touch around the basket and offensive putbacks are huge. However crowning the dude as an all-time great after 2.5 games is laughable to say the least. Some of you are so butt hurt over any differing opinion you've created a stance to attack that doesn't even exist.

[bradael]

Wrong about what? His inability to create for himself? 95%+ of his points are assisted or put back baskets. His poor post and primeter defense? Both those things have been shaky. I was wrong about his hook it's much nicer than what I saw at Kentucky.

So what can you point to after 2.5 games and say I was wrong about? Are you saying he's a franchise changer after 2.5 games?

You said he wouldn't even average 10 points a game as a rookie. Nothing that he's shown, including seven preseason games where he averaged 15 & 10, suggests he'll be anywhere near that low this season.

It's pretty clear that you don't even want to be wrong. You want him to bust so you can tell everyone you were right about him. That's sad considering that you call yourself a Hornets fan.

Anthony Davis is not another Serge Ibaka.

[Coughka]

Drummond IMO has a base to be a guy the offense runs through. I don't just look at stats I look at skillset. While Drummond didn't do it often when he did he looked like an unstoppable force.

To me it's madness that you see that same "base" in Drummond and not in Davis, particularly when considering it's a far less refined "base".

What skills do you see in Drummond that are superior to the skills you see in Davis; it can't be ball handling, it can't be his jumpshot, it can't be his offensive awareness, it can't be his post game; even his best "skill", his athleticism, is practically the same as Davis' (he might be a slightly better leaper, and that's only a maybe).

[da ThRONe]

Either you've gone off the deep end or you don't have the first clue who Andre Drummond or Anthony Davis is.

Ok. Of Drummond's 22 made baskets 8 weren't assisted or putbacks. Once again that's compared to Davis' 1. Yeah deep end.

edit: said 10 but it's 8.

[da ThRONe]

You said he wouldn't even average 10 points a game as a rookie. Nothing that he's shown, including seven preseason games where he averaged 15 & 10, suggests he'll be anywhere near that low this season.

It's pretty clear that you don't even want to be wrong. You want him to bust so you can tell everyone you were right about him. That's sad considering that you call yourself a Hornets fan.

Anthony Davis is not another Serge Ibaka.

This was before I knew Gordon was going to be out to start the season.

The last 5 games Serge is averaging 17.6 ppg. This is with Westbrook and Durant on the team.

LOL at me not wanting to be wrong. I already said Davis has shown more polish than I saw at Kentucky. And need I remind people the young man has only played 2.5 games.

[Soundwave]

Ok. Of Drummond's 22 made baskets 10 weren't assisted or putbacks. Once again that's compared to Davis' 1. Yeah deep end.

68.4% of his baskets are assisted on. For a rookie that is fabulous.

The list of guys that get more help with assists are:
Antawn Jamison
Charlie Villanueva
Terrence Jones
Troy Murphy
Kevin Garnett
Jared Sullinger
Taj Gibson
Tiago Splitter
Lamar Odom
Serge Ibaka
Elton Brand
Jason Smith
Brandon Bass
Gustavo Ayon
Rasheed Wallace
Thomas Robinson
Ryan Anderson
Tim Duncan
Al Horford
David Lee
Patrick Patterson
Blake Griffin
Tyler Hansbrough
DeJuan Blair
Chris Bosh
Emeka Okafor
Meyers Leonard
Byron Mullens
Marc Gasol
Samuel Dalembert

That's just a small list of the guys that get more help than Davis, there are 43 PF's that get more help, but I even through in a few C's in that list above, and again we are talking about a rookie.

As for his defense in the post, he's allowing just 0.83 points per play, shooting 40%, and scoring 33% of the time while turning it over 17% of the time. For comparisons sake KG is averaging 1.0 ppp, allowing 64%, and scoring 50% of the time. Al Horford is at 1.04 ppp, allowing 55%, and scoring 50% of the time. Tim Duncan is at 0.87 ppp, allowing 48%, and scoring 44% of the time. Elton Brand is at 1.04 ppp, allowing 67%, and scoring 53% of the time. Do I really need to continue? It may not be Dwight Howard good, but it's just fine, especially for a rook.

Why are these two stats so far apart?

[da ThRONe]

To me it's madness that you see that same "base" in Drummond and not in Davis, particularly when considering it's a far less refined "base".

What skills do you see in Drummond that are superior to the skills you see in Davis; it can't be ball handling, it can't be his jumpshot, it can't be his offensive awareness, it can't be his post game; even his best "skill", his athleticism, is practically the same as Davis' (he might be a slightly better leaper, and that's only a maybe).

Drummond is more explosives with his dribble and post moves, is stronger and more phyiscal. He's a better one-on-one post defender. At Kentucky Davis post moves looked awkward and off based. Drummond didn't have that problem. Like I said Davis hook looks so much more smooth now than what I saw, but Drummond is the 6'11 guy I think has much more "guard-like" skills and a ability to face up and explode pass pretty much every 5 and a lot of 4's in the league.

[da ThRONe]

Why are these two stats so far apart?

I guess because he's counting solely assisted baskets and I'm counting putback baskets.

Davis

Assisted baskets 13

Put back 4

Unassisted 1

Drummond

Assisted baskets 10

Put Back 4

Unassisted 8 (not 10)

[-jlam-]

I think your definition of "assisted" is so warped it's hilarious. You seem to imply that assisted means someone completely created a shot for him and all he had to do was dink it into an empty basket like a soccer player in front of an open net. I can think of at least 4 baskets off the top of my head just from the Charlotte game that apparently were considered "assisted" that were 99% Davis. The swooping lefty finger roll, the silky one bounce jump hook over a defender, the baseline jumper off the bounce from about 14 ft, and the driving basket against Mullens after their altercation. If someone got assists off of those baskets then it was Davis inflating their stats and not the other way around.

[da ThRONe]

I think your definition of "assisted" is so warped it's hilarious. You seem to imply that assisted means someone completely created a shot for him and all he had to do was dink it into an empty basket like a soccer player in front of an open net. I can think of at least 4 baskets off the top of my head just from the Charlotte game that apparently were considered "assisted" that were 99% Davis. The swooping lefty finger roll, the silky one bounce jump hook over a defender, the baseline jumper off the bounce from about 14 ft, and the driving basket against Mullens after their altercation. If someone got assists off of those baskets then it was Davis inflating their stats and not the other way around.

This is a fair point. I'm not saying every counted assist is an easy shot. However it does mean Davis didn't get himself into scoring position through ball handling or post moves. Which is my knock on him. If/when he starts to show me he can and do so consistently I'll be here saying I was wrong. However my point is (and I don't even know how this is debatable) we can't say with any certainty one way or the other after 2.5 games.

[da ThRONe]

I guess because he's counting solely assisted baskets and I'm counting putback baskets.

Davis

Assisted baskets 13

Put back 4

Unassisted 1

Drummond

Assisted baskets 10

Put Back 4

Unassisted 8 (not 10)

Ok did the numbers

Davis % of assisted baskets 72.2

Drummond % of assisted baskets 45.4

edit: This doesn't mean much just keeping things in perspective.