Luxury Tax Thread

[PrepP]

I just don't like the idea of punishing people for actions they made while there was no rule against it.

This has happened before. I think we are kind of learning what best and making rules as we play.

[BallSoHard]

Obviously No one is wanting to create more work for CP3. But if you have a good argument for why there shouldn't be a penalty then add it to the discussion.

I have added to it in another thread and all of the suggestions have pretty much been said already. This league isn't about being fair to all teams every season. It's about the life of it. If you don't think i'm going to have to rebuild eventually you're crazy. This is being brought up by two people who have salary cap space, you and Trell who are rebuilding. Everyone else isn't for some franchise crippling penalty because they have good players. I know you guys like to be like oh the super teams have all the talent, but look at the teams with the highest payrolls. The Spurs: have a window of 1 more year. The Mavs: Let's be real, once Karl retires they'll be a 4 or 5 seed. The Lakers (who are only 15 over compared to the spurs 33 mill over): who only have 2 players worth a damn under 29; the supersonics: have 2 or 3 guys that drink ensures before games.

Every one of these good teams has a small life cycle before they reset. Just because a couple of people chose to start by resetting and building from the ground up doesn't mean the GMs who are trying to win now should be crippled. the fact is, I think teams should be crippled for trying to purposly tank and ruining the integritity of the league. teams that don't make the playoffs once in 3 years should be penalized. And while we're at it if we're going to do anything regarding this salary cap issue, i think we SHOULD REWARD teams that make the playoffs under the cap, not penalize the ones over it and are still sucessful. Give 3 points to a team that makes the playoffs under the cap instead of 1 and put it to rest.

[BallSoHard]

Its not really that for me, it's the fact that one will feel free and go after top guys with top money when they are already over the cap by alot. If that gets addressed I'm a happy camper, even though I'm happy now. But its was the main base of my arguement.

You can feel free to sign AK47 to a 15 mill per year contract if he's a FA, i don't care. And the fact that I can't match it proves it works well enough.

[Conroy]

The only thing I worry about which is what I posted as the third post of the thread which has gotten no response so far. Is a team 10 - 20 million over the cap having bird rights to a superstar that puts them way over the cap with a long term deal, someone is going to be upset not matter what is decided. I think the difficulties in signing FA's and making trades for teams over the cap is punishment enough. But if the stars align and a team has a superstar's contract come up at the right time and they use bird rights that puts them something at like 30 mill over the cap is the only time I'll have an issue.

[PrepP]

I have added to it in another thread and all of the suggestions have pretty much been said already. This league isn't about being fair to all teams every season. It's about the life of it. If you don't think i'm going to have to rebuild eventually you're crazy. This is being brought up by two people who have salary cap space, you and Trell who are rebuilding. Everyone else isn't for some franchise crippling penalty because they have good players. I know you guys like to be like oh the super teams have all the talent, but look at the teams with the highest payrolls. The Spurs: have a window of 1 more year. The Mavs: Let's be real, once Karl retires they'll be a 4 or 5 seed. The Lakers (who are only 15 over compared to the spurs 33 mill over): who only have 2 players worth a damn under 29; the supersonics: have 2 or 3 guys that drink ensures before games.

Every one of these good teams has a small life cycle before they reset. Just because a couple of people chose to start by resetting and building from the ground up doesn't mean the GMs who are trying to win now should be crippled. the fact is, I think teams should be crippled for trying to purposly tank and ruining the integritity of the league. teams that don't make the playoffs once in 3 years should be penalized. And while we're at it if we're going to do anything regarding this salary cap issue, i think we SHOULD REWARD teams that make the playoffs under the cap, not penalize the ones over it and are still sucessful. Give 3 points to a team that makes the playoffs under the cap instead of 1 and put it to rest.

I think me and Trell might just be the most vocal GM's that are under the cap. Other GM's may not have formed a stance on if there should be a cap penalty bc they are just happy to play the game. so they don't post their opinion. But that's why it's a discussion thread to get everyone's opinion, pro or con penalty.

What I can't understand is people say that everyone has the option to go over the cap. I admit that I'm not a cap guru so I guess I need some help understanding this. How can my team go over the cap (currently about 2 mill under)? I can't take back more salary in a trade that puts me over the cap bc the trade would be illegal. Maybe if I draft a player high in the draft and he makes a high salary, but I thought players get paid based on where they were drafted. So If i was concerned about going over the cap for that pick I would have the option to trade it or draft a player and pay the penalty(if there was one). I can sign FA with my cap space but can't go over the amount of cap room I have to my knowledge. What am I missing? There has to be something?

As of now, if you are over the cap then there is nothing that penalizes you for being over and making moves to stay over. So a team over the cap can still trade big contracts for big contracts and stay over. You can still sign FA's on exceptions for more money than I can offer and I'm under the cap. Just seems to me like once you are way over with good players then you actually have more options than teams that are stuck in mediocrity or rebuilding. I guess I just don't understand things well enough and am looking for someone to explain it well enough for me to say "OK" NO penalty makes sense. But that's how I see things as of now in the league. And I do think a good penalty balances out the league more overall. Just my opinion tho. Not *****ing bc I am under and you are over. I'm all about what's best for all teams in the league.

[Conroy]

PrepP if you are over the cap and want to make a trade you must make the salaries match within a 100k or so, which can be very difficult.

[PrepP]

The only thing I worry about which is what I posted as the third post of the thread which has gotten no response so far. Is a team 10 - 20 million over the cap having bird rights to a superstar that puts them way over the cap with a long term deal, someone is going to be upset not matter what is decided. I think the difficulties in signing FA's and making trades for teams over the cap is punishment enough. But if the stars align and a team has a superstar's contract come up at the right time and they use bird rights that puts them something at like 30 mill over the cap is the only time I'll have an issue.

I guess I don't understand this bc my team is under the cap. But it seems to me that signing FA's and trades aren't that difficult if you are over the cap. Yeah you have to make salaries match but you don't have to worry about going under the cap due to a penalty. Also as i understand it, if you are over the cap you can offer a MLE and a LLE. While a team under the cap can only offer the amount they are under the cap. So in my case I can only offer roughly $2 mill to a FA (if it were today). Please let me know if I am understanding this incorrectly.

[PrepP]

PrepP if you are over the cap and want to make a trade you must make the salaries match within a 100k or so, which can be very difficult.

It can be difficult. I get that. But in my opinion it is still an advantage over me being under the cap bc I can only make a move that put me up to the cap.I can't go over. Sorry If Im being hard headed. Like I said, I may just be understanding all of this wrong.

[Conroy]

I guess I don't understand this bc my team is under the cap. But it seems to me that signing FA's and trades aren't that difficult if you are over the cap. Yeah you have to make salaries match but you don't have to worry about going under the cap due to a penalty. Also as i understand it, if you are over the cap you can offer a mid level and a whatever its called exception (cant remember at the moment). While a team under the cap can only offer the amount they are under the cap. So in my case I can only offer roughly $2 mill to a FA (if it were today). Please let me know if I am understanding this incorrectly.

I could be wrong but I think this is incorrect. Any team regardless of cap situations can offer the full MLE (Mid Level Exception ~4.5 mill, I may be way off on actual amount) or the full LLE (Low Level Exception 1.2 mill)...so you could offer what you are under the cap to a player, for example your under the cap 2 mill you could offer player A 1 year 2 million, player B the MLE 4.5 mill for 1 year, and player C the LLE 1.2 million 1 year. OR just offer player B the MLE and no one else and you'd be 2.5 mill over the cap.

[BeeBall Reasons]

There needs to be a system in place to keep teams from paying fake fake 16 million just so they can use his contract for trade purposes while maintaining 100 million plus payrolls

[PrepP]

I could be wrong but I think this is incorrect. Any team regardless of cap situations can offer the full MLE (Mid Level Exception ~4.5 mill, I may be way off on actual amount) or the full LLE (Low Level Exception 1.2 mill)...so you could offer what you are under the cap to a player, for example your under the cap 2 mill you could offer player A 1 year 2 million, player B the MLE 4.5 mill for 1 year, and player C the LLE 1.2 million 1 year. OR just offer player B the MLE and no one else and you'd be 2.5 mill over the cap.

OK you may be right and I may be misunderstanding it. I was under the impression that the MLE and LLE were only for teams Over the Cap. And teams under the cap could only use their available cap space. Anybody know which it is for sure?

[AD23forMVP]

Alright how about this. Teams 30M over the cap lose the ability to collect points they earned via player game achievements, and they lose the ability to receive points in a trade.

[PrepP]

Alright how about this. Teams 30M over the cap lose the ability to collect points they earned via player game achievements, and they lose the ability to receive points in a trade.

Please don't take this the wrong way but I think that is a good start. I don't know what else can be done tho. I just don't think taking points away is a big deal. But there may be no better alternative.

Why is there no penalty till you are 30 mill over? How can teams under the cap go over? How about some kind of trade restrictions and a penalty? There are a lot of questions.

CP3, I'm sorry for causing all this and being hard headed on the issue. Just thought it was a issue with the league but I seem to be in the minority bc no other "pro penalty" teams are coming forward. I may be in the minority and opening myself up for a lot of criticism from other GM's but I still think teams over the cap have more options than teams under and if we do a penalty it should be pretty strict. I also feel that if there is a cap penalty that it should be just that......... any team over the cap. Not just when you get $30 mill or more over.

I can feel the other GM's getting their pitchforks ready.

[wuggie]

The only reason why I'm over the cap is because I tried to build a team in the fantasy draft that was going to compete and I didn't know what anyones salary was going to look like in the later rounds so I was like "screw it" once I saw how much some of their salaries were. Once your over the cap it's not that easy to get under or worth it at times. Next season I will def be under and still have a competive team.

[Conroy]

Are tiered penalties an option? How about 0-10 mil over you have to deal with only using LLE, MLE in FA and difficulties trading (current rule), 20 mil over no points earned for players in game achievements, 30 mil over no points via trade plus no points for team achievements. As in once your 30 mil over you basically earn zero points.

[BallSoHard]

I could be wrong but I think this is incorrect. Any team regardless of cap situations can offer the full MLE (Mid Level Exception ~4.5 mill, I may be way off on actual amount) or the full LLE (Low Level Exception 1.2 mill)...so you could offer what you are under the cap to a player, for example your under the cap 2 mill you could offer player A 1 year 2 million, player B the MLE 4.5 mill for 1 year, and player C the LLE 1.2 million 1 year. OR just offer player B the MLE and no one else and you'd be 2.5 mill over the cap.

Not only that, but PreP, once you have bird rights to your players, and you will for all those young guys, you'll be able to sign them over the cap. Now to be honest, you should probably need 4 bird years after next year ot be able to sign your guys long term while being over the cap IMO, the 2 year rule makes it kind of silly.

[BallSoHard]

Please don't take this the wrong way but I think that is a good start. I don't know what else can be done tho. I just don't think taking points away is a big deal. But there may be no better alternative.

Why is there no penalty till you are 30 mill over? How can teams under the cap go over? How about some kind of trade restrictions and a penalty? There are a lot of questions.

CP3, I'm sorry for causing all this and being hard headed on the issue. Just thought it was a issue with the league but I seem to be in the minority bc no other "pro penalty" teams are coming forward. I may be in the minority and opening myself up for a lot of criticism from other GM's but I still think teams over the cap have more options than teams under and if we do a penalty it should be pretty strict. I also feel that if there is a cap penalty that it should be just that......... any team over the cap. Not just when you get $30 mill or more over.

I can feel the other GM's getting their pitchforks ready.

You ARE only one fighting for this, and you're incorrect that teams over the cap have more flexability. If you're 10 mill under the cap, you can sign FAs up to 10 mill, THEN offer a 4.5 mill mle THEN offer 1.2 Mill LLE and have all your rookies signed. How is that more flexable than someone who can only sign the 4.5 mill exeption?

[BallSoHard]

Alright how about this. Teams 30M over the cap lose the ability to collect points they earned via player game achievements, and they lose the ability to receive points in a trade.

Sold. Let's put it to rest!

[BallSoHard]

I could be wrong but I think this is incorrect. Any team regardless of cap situations can offer the full MLE (Mid Level Exception ~4.5 mill, I may be way off on actual amount) or the full LLE (Low Level Exception 1.2 mill)...so you could offer what you are under the cap to a player, for example your under the cap 2 mill you could offer player A 1 year 2 million, player B the MLE 4.5 mill for 1 year, and player C the LLE 1.2 million 1 year. .

This alone makes you 5.7 over the cap after starting 2 mill under, then you can sign as many guys at the min which sometimes is 1 mill and you creep up to the 8 mill over the cap in no time. Make a couple of trades (which u have to be within 120% of the value being traded) and you could be 15 mill over.

[Pelicans78]

Honestly, there wasn't any kind of luxury tax until 2005. Teams routinely went over the cap before then without paying a penatly. Maybe a penalty shouldn't be in place until the 2005 season. Unless I'm wrong about the year. But I'm ok with a penalty when a team is over the cap by a certain amount and it should only involve points, but this shouldn't take place until the year when the luxury tax came into play. Also, the penalty shouldn't start when a team is just over the cap because that's not how the luxury tax works.

Basically, if the luxury tax didn't come into play until 2005, then we shouldn't penalize teams until then. And the penalty should be based on how the real luxury tax works. This is a NBA sim league and we should try to operate that way as best as we can.

I'll be honest, I was only a couple of million over the cap last season and I won 47 games and finished 3rd in the west. It can be done. But also, its also hard to blame GMs here for drafting guys who made the team highly over the cap. That doesn't seem fair at all. Everyone was trying to draft the best player regardless of possible salary. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

[PrepP]

The only reason why I'm over the cap is because I tried to build a team in the fantasy draft that was going to compete and I didn't know what anyones salary was going to look like in the later rounds so I was like "screw it" once I saw how much some of their salaries were. Once your over the cap it's not that easy to get under or worth it at times. Next season I will def be under and still have a competive team.

It is if there is a strict penalty you are facing and you have to make trades that take your cap into account.

[PrepP]

Sold. Let's put it to rest!

I can see why you would be sold on that as a penalty. Not that restrictive.

[PrepP]

Are tiered penalties an option? How about 0-10 mil over you have to deal with only using LLE, MLE in FA and difficulties trading (current rule), 20 mil over no points earned for players in game achievements, 30 mil over no points via trade plus no points for team achievements. As in once your 30 mil over you basically earn zero points.

I like this idea. Penalty gets harsher the more over the cap a team is.

[PrepP]

Honestly, there wasn't any kind of luxury tax until 2005. Teams routinely went over the cap before then without paying a penatly. Maybe a penalty shouldn't be in place until the 2005 season. Unless I'm wrong about the year. But I'm ok with a penalty when a team is over the cap by a certain amount and it should only involve points, but this shouldn't take place until the year when the luxury tax came into play. Also, the penalty shouldn't start when a team is just over the cap because that's not how the luxury tax works.

Basically, if the luxury tax didn't come into play until 2005, then we shouldn't penalize teams until then. And the penalty should be based on how the real luxury tax works. This is a NBA sim league and we should try to operate that way as best as we can.

I'll be honest, I was only a couple of million over the cap last season and I won 47 games and finished 3rd in the west. It can be done. But also, its also hard to blame GMs here for drafting guys who made the team highly over the cap. That doesn't seem fair at all. Everyone was trying to draft the best player regardless of possible salary. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.

You make some good points. I wasn't aware that a luxury tax wasn't introduced until 2005 or whenever. It's definetly not impossible to be a contender and under the cap. It takes making smart moves and being patient.

What about teams that no longer have any of the players they originally drafted and are still way over the cap? They aren't penalized.

[BallSoHard]

I can see why you would be sold on that as a penalty. Not that restrictive.

Great rebuttal. And I'll come back with I can see why u wouldn't want it; not that restrictive .