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Thread: New Position Concepts

  1. #1

    New Position Concepts

    As we've gone throughout this fantastic offseason we have often come to the agreement that the traditional 1-5 positions are obsolete. So, taking that opinion as the general consensus, it's time to take step 2: redefine positions.

    I believe the best way to do it is too break it down into skillsets that are necessary to succeed in the NBA. Then we can say which players fit which roles and help us assess what players to target in the future. But first we need to agree upon a good list of "positions".

    The ones I've come up with so far are:

    Ball Distributor
    Spot Up Shooter
    Rebounder
    Low Post Scorer
    High Post Facilitator
    Slasher
    Perimeter Stopped
    Interior Presence (Defensively)

    Anyone else have any suggestions?

  2. #2
    NOLA Sports Addict Smow-'s Avatar
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    While I can not add to your list, I believe it a championship aspiring team requires at least 3 players who are above-average in three "positionless" roles.

    For example, I'll compare OKC to LAC

    OKC:
    Durant- Spot-Up Shooter, Slasher, Perimeter Stopper
    Ibaka- Interior Presence, Rebounder, Low Post Scorer
    Westbrook- Ball Distributor, Slasher, Perimeter Stopper
    Harden- Spot-Up Shooter, Slasher, Ball Distributor

    LAC:
    Paul- Ball Distributor, Perimeter Stopper, Slasher
    Griffin- Low Post Scorer (is the only one I am certain of though I guess "Athletic Freak" might be a "position" of sorts)
    D'Jordan- Interior Presence, Rebounder
    Billups- Ball Distributor

    Whats intersesting about this kind of anylsis is that it shows how teams can win with multiple players possessing overlaping roles in the case of OKC, as long as they are pretty good at said roles. This also means you will need more specialized players to make up for the defencies the main players lack.

    Concerning the Hornets, we already have one player in Gordon, and another expected in Davis. Anderson could be the third if he keeps up the pace he set last season. This means that we need to find at least one more player to complete our "Main Men" assuming the other 3 pan out at best-case scenario (Gordon stays healthy, Davis doesnt pull an Oden or Kwame Brown, Anderson plays like he did last year.)
    Obviously Rivers stands the best chance to become the fourth guy being he has the most pormise after those three.
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  3. #3
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!! luckyman's Avatar
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    None of this is anything new. There have always been players that do exceptional things that are core to other positions on the court. Scottie Pippen was a ”point” forward at times. Jamal Mashburn had a post game.

    That being said, each spot has its core competencies that can't deviate. Your center has to have bulk to not get thrown about for rebounds and defense. Your power forward has to be able to help on the glass and defend the paint.

    I hope no one uses team USA as an example. That team is an extreme outlier.

  4. #4
    Yea those are more talents/attributes of players. I'd say there's 3 positions: ball handler, wings, and bigs. Teams will usually have at least one ball handler and one big on the court at all times, besides that anything pretty much goes

  5. #5
    My perfect team would be a dominant shot blocker, 2 playmakers that can drive and create and score and then I want all my role players to hit the open 3 and play solid team d. Id say the hornets have a solid foundation to go towards that mold

  6. #6
    Fire Monty!! Contributor AD23forMVP's Avatar
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    For starters, I would disagree that all five positions are obsolete. The PG position is still very much alive.

    But to answer your question, imo there are swings and there are bigs. It's not really necessary to break it down further then that.
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  7. #7
    The Mad Titan    Contributor   
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    These are skillsets, not positions.
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  8. #8
    "The first thing to know about the thirteen NBA positionsóMuthu labeled them offensive ball-handler, defensive ball-handler, combo ball-handler, shooting ball-handler, role-playing ball-handler, 3-point rebounder, scoring rebounder, paint protector, scoring paint protector, role player, NBA first team, NBA second team, and one-of-a-kind"

    There was a good article written about this a while back. http://www.gq.com/sports/profiles/20...#ixzz1y0VnFoS7

    It really is a must read for any basketball fan.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by CP3forMVP View Post
    For starters, I would disagree that all five positions are obsolete. The PG position is still very much alive.

    But to answer your question, imo there are swings and there are bigs. It's not really necessary to break it down further then that.
    Just about every NBA scouting department disagrees with you.

  10. #10
    Fire Monty!! Contributor AD23forMVP's Avatar
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    ?

  11. #11
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
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    I'd like to see some clarification on that point too.
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  12. #12
    The Mad Titan    Contributor   
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veritas View Post
    Just about every NBA scouting department disagrees with you.
    Scouts scout skillsets...

  13. #13
    To say they are just "Swings and Bigs" is an oversimplification. It's like saying the only political philosophies are "Republican and Democrat"

  14. #14
    Fire Monty!! Contributor AD23forMVP's Avatar
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    No it isn't. The OP is talking about positions, that coaches don't even talk about positions like PG, SG, SF, PF, C to anyone but the media and so on. Coaches categorize positions as swing players and bigs. Anything else is just a skill set, not a position.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by CP3forMVP View Post
    No it isn't. The OP is talking about positions, that coaches don't even talk about positions like PG, SG, SF, PF, C to anyone but the media and so on. Coaches categorize positions as swing players and bigs. Anything else is just a skill set, not a position.
    And position is defined by... the player's skill set.

    For example, Kevin Durant and Anthony Davis had similar size and build coming out of college but KDs skill set makes him more suitable to be a ball handling wing player while Davis' skill set makes him more of a frontline defensive player. However just looking at them they are both "bigs"
    Last edited by Veritas; 08-14-2012 at 03:01 PM.

  16. #16
    Analytics Reveal 13 New Basketball Positions

    For as long as basketball has been played, itís been played with five positions. Today they are point guard, shooting guard, small forward, power forward and center. A California data geek sees 13 more hidden among them, with the power to help even the Charlotte Bobcats improve their lineup and win more games.

    Muthu Alagappan is a Stanford University senior, a basketball fan and an intern at Ayasdi, a data visualization company. Ayasdi takes huge amounts of info like tumor samples and displays it in interactive shapes that highlight patterns like genetic markers that indicate a likelihood of ovarian cancer. Itís called topological data analysis, and it can be applied to sports, too.

    That is exactly what Alagappan did. http://www.sloansportsconference.com...ybookclickthru



    1. Offensive Ball-Handler.
    This guy handles the ball and specializes in points, free throws and shots attempted, but is below average in steals and blocks. Examples include Jason Terry and Tony Parker.
    2. Defensive Ball-Handler. This is a defense-minded player who handles the ball and specializes in assists and steals, but is only so-so when it comes to points, free throws and shots. See also: Mike Conley and Kyle Lowry.
    3. Combo Ball-Handler. These players are adept at both offense and defense but donít stand out in either category. Examples include Jameer Nelson and John Wall.
    4. Shooting Ball-Handler. Someone with a knack for scoring, characterized by above-average field goal attempts and points. Stephen Curry and Manu Ginobili are examples.
    5. Role-Playing Ball-Handler. These guys play fewer minutes and donít have as big a statistical impact on the game. Hello, Arron Afflalo and Rudy Fernandez.
    6. 3-Point Rebounder. Such a player is a ball-handler and big man above average in rebounds and three-pointers, both attempted and made, compared to ball-handlers. Luol Deng and Chase Budinger fit the bill.
    7. Scoring Rebounder. He grabs the ball frequently and demands attention when on offense. Dirk Nowitzki and LaMarcus Aldridge play this position.
    8. Paint Protector. A big man like Marcus Camby and Tyson Chandler known for blocking shots and getting rebounds, but also for racking up more fouls than points.
    9. Scoring Paint Protector. These players stand out on offense and defense, scoring, rebounding and blocking shots at a very high rate. Examples include Kevin Love and Blake Griffin.
    10. NBA 1st-Team. This is a select group of players so far above average in every statistical category that the software simply groups them together regardless of their height or weight. Kevin Durant and LeBron James fall in this category.
    11. NBA 2nd-Team. Not quite as good, but still really, really good. Rudy Gay and Caron Butler are examples.
    12. Role Player. Slightly less skilled than the 2nd-team guys, and they donít play many minutes. Guys like Shane Battier and Ronnie Brewer fall under this position.
    13. One-of-a-Kind. These guys are so good they are off the charts ó literally. The software could not connect them to any other player. Derrick Rose and Dwight Howard are examples, but you already knew that.
    http://www.wired.com/playbook/2012/0...cs-basketball/
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  17. #17
    The Voice of Reason Contributor RaisingTheBar's Avatar
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    My head hurts.

  18. #18
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
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    Interesting. Because it takes other numbers into account it's non-opinion based and Derrick Rose and Howard are one of a kind, but LeBron and Durant aren't?

    Cuz when I think about it...it's true. LeBron's amazing but he's not really doing anything Andre Igoudala isn't doing. He's just WAY better at it. Or maybe I'm missing the point.

  19. #19
    The Opinion Business   HR.com Associate  
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    Looks like we need another Podcast to explain this as sosme of you guys are making it way too complicated.......don't strip away all the artistic joy of the game...
    1-What does not move is dead.What has speed,and mobilty has more possibilities,more life...quickness creates luck.

    2- Your Defense is only as good as your HELP/ROTATING defenders.

    3-Games are won while the ball is in the air.


    4- You design your roster to win a 7 game series not a one game confrontation.

  20. #20
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
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    I know I'm just havin' fun with it. But I wouldn't mind another podcast.

  21. #21
    ...wow. Just say the nba is playing "StreetBall" now lol The positionless thing isn't really true it's just being said because every player isn't sticking to defined roles as they used because everyone's trying to be the "guy" or MJ honesty, which is making the lines between them blurred. No one wants to pass, or post up, they want to score. To say that the positions are obsolete is a stretch.
    Last edited by wuggie; 08-14-2012 at 04:42 PM.

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  22. #22
    The Opinion Business   HR.com Associate  
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    Yes another Podcast is needed as defining positions is something that has driven me crazy for years. I have my formula and opinions on this topic that i have had many a conversation about with coaches.....its rather simple yet so very true....

    Eman,you are at least enjoying the joy of the game and the topics it reveals....( a toast in your honor!)

  23. #23
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
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    I've heard of less worthy excuses to drink.


  24. #24
    Pistol Pete Would Be Proud!!
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    The example players given in that article are laughable. And how is Rose much different than Iverson? It was a good attempt, but I really don't like the categories it came up with.

    To have a functional offense, you need an initator, a pick setter, a post threat, a range threat, and a route runner. The more of those roles/positions your individual players can play, the more versatile your offense becomes.

    I can't really think of good equivalent on defense. I do think you need to look at positions a player plays on defense and offense as two different things, though.

    And there is my terrible and not very thought out opinion on the matter.

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