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Thread: Would you listen to offers for Minny 1st rounder?

  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by yufrem31 View Post
    Most definitely I would trade one of the picks along with contract filler like Okafor,kaman, or Ariza to get a pg like Rondo. Jack is nice, but if I had a chance to get a pg like Rondo and pair him with EG that your backcourt for the next decade potentially.
    But your tying yourself up. Do you really want to spend like 27 mil every year just on your two starting guards? and before you gave Demps the cap room to sign the bigs he wants?

  2. #77
    Lets assume the Hornets get 2 lottery picks. Why this year's draft is filled with talented power and small forwards. The pg depth is lacking. I would use the higher of your lottery picks and get a big man. If another team like say Boston wants to start to rebuild they may offer a rondo in exchange for a lottery pick. I'm not saying take a deal like that, but trust me Dell Demps will keep his options open.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by yufrem31 View Post
    Lets assume the Hornets get 2 lottery picks. Why this year's draft is filled with talented power and small forwards. The pg depth is lacking. I would use the higher of your lottery picks and get a big man. If another team like say Boston wants to start to rebuild they may offer a rondo in exchange for a lottery pick. I'm not saying take a deal like that, but trust me Dell Demps will keep his options open.
    Thatd probably be the only case id consider, if we could get a starting pass first PG that is reasonably young for the worse of our picks and some filler guys (Kaman preferably) then absolutely and use our pick and get a big guy
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  4. #79
    Gerrity Joe Joe Gerrity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 42 View Post
    That is correct. I don't want Rondo's deal going forward. I think we will have better options overall for the next 2 summers, and I want Dell to have his shot so we can see if he's legit or not. He's shown great promise, but we need to see him build, not manuver. Any deal like Rondo's going with Gordon and Okafor hurts that.
    I couldn't disagree more. Rondo's deal is 3 years, 36 million after this year. Sure he has his limitations, but his talent is undeniable. There are few better defensive point guards, if any. Put him next to Gordon and you have the best backcourt both offensively and defensively in the league for the next five years.

    Not sure what I'd give up for him, but if it's jack, the minny pick, kaman, and another young player who isn't Ayon, I'd do it in a second. A freaking second.

    Seriously, imagine lining up Gordon, Rondo, and Ariza patrolling the perimeter on defense. Tell me that isn't something you want to see.
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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Gerrity View Post
    Seriously, imagine lining up Gordon, Rondo, and Ariza patrolling the perimeter on defense. Tell me that isn't something you want to see.
    It might produce wins, but I'm not sure anyone wants to games with scores in the 70's

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by BP225 View Post
    It might produce wins, but I'm not sure anyone wants to games with scores in the 70's
    Maybe the opposing squad would be in the 70's...but Gordon and Rondo would be very potent offensively as well.

  7. #82
    Charter Member Contributor PELICANSFAN's Avatar
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    If you did that, you would have to find some serious scoring at the PF position and/or C position (if Okafor goes). Ariza and Rondo would only combine for about 20 points a game with Gordon adding another 20. Landry and Okafor do not contribute a lot offensively so you have to get an offensive front court or bench.

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Gerrity View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. Rondo's deal is 3 years, 36 million after this year. Sure he has his limitations, but his talent is undeniable. There are few better defensive point guards, if any. Put him next to Gordon and you have the best backcourt both offensively and defensively in the league for the next five years.

    Not sure what I'd give up for him, but if it's jack, the minny pick, kaman, and another young player who isn't Ayon, I'd do it in a second. A freaking second.

    Seriously, imagine lining up Gordon, Rondo, and Ariza patrolling the perimeter on defense. Tell me that isn't something you want to see.
    I don't want to see everything forced to Gordan on offense. No I don't.

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by HORNETSFAN View Post
    If you did that, you would have to find some serious scoring at the PF position and/or C position (if Okafor goes). Ariza and Rondo would only combine for about 20 points a game with Gordon adding another 20. Landry and Okafor do not contribute a lot offensively so you have to get an offensive front court or bench.
    Agreed. I think we may however be able to get scoring from the 4 with our pick in the draft. A fair point, nevertheless.

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by HORNETSFAN View Post
    If you did that, you would have to find some serious scoring at the PF position and/or C position (if Okafor goes). Ariza and Rondo would only combine for about 20 points a game with Gordon adding another 20. Landry and Okafor do not contribute a lot offensively so you have to get an offensive front court or bench.
    You don't think Gordon can score more then 20 ppg? He averaged 22.3 as a 22 year old sharing shots with Blake Griffin.

    And that 22.3 is actually skewed...Gordon was putting up 24.1 ppg prior to the wrist injury.
    Last edited by LoneyROY7; 01-25-2012 at 03:15 PM.

  11. #86
    The Franchise Contributor GeauxPelicans's Avatar
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    I don't understand all the hate for Rondo in this forum. Dude is a stud passer and one on one defender, what else could we want next to Gordon? It would b nice if he could hit the open 3, but how many PG can u find that see the court as well as Rondo, play D as well as Rondo, and make everybody better like he does? Rondo/EG back court would be the best backcourt in the game for a long time. You make Boston include one of their firsts for Minny's 1st and you could add Marshall to back up Ronod late in 1st. You add Ariza at the 3, and hopefully Davis/Drummond with our first and you have a lineup that looks like this:

    Rondo/Marshall or FA
    Gordon/Henry
    Ariza/Henry
    Davis (or Oak)/Smith/Ayon
    Drummond (or Oak)/Smith/Ayon

    Gordon could also play PG for spot minutes depending on matchups, etc. if our pick isn't top 2, you take the best 4 available such as T Rob or Slinger. Not sure how much cap room we would have but you use it on a back up PG (If Boston doesn't include a 1st), a sharp shooter (who we may already have in Henry), and another back up big and that's a damn good lineup. Good luck getting to 90 on them.
    Last edited by GeauxPelicans; 01-25-2012 at 03:09 PM.

  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Luke's Hornets View Post
    I like Williams but there would be like 3-4 players that would go before him in this draft. Drummond, Davis, Lamb, Barnes. I would rather all 4 of those. Not in that order.
    I get wanting Drummond and Davis because they're big men, but no way have Lamb or Barnes been nearly as impressive as Williams was last year in college. Williams dominated all season long before elevating his game to a superior level in the tournament.

    I realize people always fall in love with the "shiny new potential" in every draft class, but you're severely undervaluing Williams in comparison to this class.

  13. #88
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    I personally did not want Rondo for CP3. He is not the guy you build around and he would have caused problems, IMO. But building around Eric Gordon, I think Rondo would be a great player to have. His defense, along with Gordon, Ariza, Okafor, and maybe a guy like Anthony Davis. Good god, it would be brutal to score against us. Rondo can get to the rim, and he can set up with the best of them.

    While I fully agree with 42 that I don't want to handcuff Dell, Rondo and Gordon would give us the best young backcourt in the league. Without comparison. I don't see any options at PG in the next couple of years at that level.

  14. #89
    A Soulful Sports Fan Contributor Eman5805's Avatar
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    I don't like Rondo...but put him with Gordon and you could be workin' with something.

    Get Rondo...a dream draft of Thomas Robinson and

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by LoneyROY7 View Post
    You don't think Gordon can score more then 20 ppg? He's averaged 22.3 as a 22 year old sharing shots with Blake Griffin.

    And that 22.3 is actually skewed...Gordon was putting up 24.1 ppg prior to the wrist injury.
    just to put things in perspective...he was on a losing team...it is easy to put up big numbers on a losing team...i am more interested in finding out how many points he can put up on a winning team...for ex, pierce put up 25-26 ppg the couple years before they got garnett and allen and then his points decreased to 19-20...kobe averaged 35 one year, but they only won 42 games that same year...mcgrady averaged 32 on a team that won under 20 games and his average decreased on a good houston team

    eric gordon put up big numbers on a bad clippers team last yr...so what?? jarret jack is putting up similar numbers this yr on a bad hornets team...17 and 7 for jack is comparable to 22 and 4 for gordon...is anyone calling a jack a star??

    for the record, i really like gordon...but we don't exactly know what we have in him yet...i don't care about "stats" on bad teams...let marcus thornton average 20 all he wants on a bad kings team

  16. #91
    I totally agree with nolagoblue. (I thought I quoted you, my bad).

    A backcourt of Rondo, Gordon, and Ariza would be a defensive nightmare. It can also be an offensive nightmare, but as I said earlier, along with other advocates of this scenario, we can easily get a scoring 4 or 5 in the draft based on how stacked the draft is at those positions, especially the 4.

  17. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by maingee View Post
    I get wanting Drummond and Davis because they're big men, but no way have Lamb or Barnes been nearly as impressive as Williams was last year in college. Williams dominated all season long before elevating his game to a superior level in the tournament.

    I realize people always fall in love with the "shiny new potential" in every draft class, but you're severely undervaluing Williams in comparison to this class.
    He is a tweener that people had doubts on what position he can play in the NBA. He wants to play SF but he never played that before. And at PF he is small. It's not shiny new potential. Lamb is graded better than Williams was last year also. Depending on the teams needs he could go number 3 to 5 this year. I love Williams game. I'm not trying to knock him but, I was responding to the post about him possibly going 1. No way. Davis and Drummond are 1-2, then 3-5 would go Lamb, Williams, Barnes depending on team needs or opinions. All 5 are gonna be good though.

  18. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by CP4MVP View Post
    just to put things in perspective...he was on a losing team...it is easy to put up big numbers on a losing team...i am more interested in finding out how many points he can put up on a winning team...for ex, pierce put up 25-26 ppg the couple years before they got garnett and allen and then his points decreased to 19-20...kobe averaged 35 one year, but they only won 42 games that same year...mcgrady averaged 32 on a team that won under 20 games and his average decreased on a good houston team

    eric gordon put up big numbers on a bad clippers team last yr...so what?? jarret jack is putting up similar numbers this yr on a bad hornets team...17 and 7 for jack is comparable to 22 and 4 for gordon...is anyone calling a jack a star??

    for the record, i really like gordon...but we don't exactly know what we have in him yet...i don't care about "stats" on bad teams...let marcus thornton average 20 all he wants on a bad kings team
    I personally think the good stats on a bad team is a complete BS argument. It's completely relative to the player.

    Does that mean Kevin Love's numbers are "empty"? Was Blake Griffin's rookie season last year meaningless? When D-Wade was putting up monster numbers and the Heat were a fringe play-off team, was he any less of a player?

    You also have to look at efficiency. It's not as if Gordon was shooting 40 percent and putting up 20 shots a game to get his points. He took 16.9 shots a game, while shooting 45 percent from the field and 36 percent from three.

    Oh, and Marcus Thornton? He's putting up 16.4 ppg on 39.6 percent shooting on a BAD TEAM. He's not on Gordon's level. Not even close.
    Last edited by LoneyROY7; 01-25-2012 at 03:34 PM.

  19. #94
    Mostly Harmless 42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Gerrity View Post
    I couldn't disagree more. Rondo's deal is 3 years, 36 million after this year. Sure he has his limitations, but his talent is undeniable. There are few better defensive point guards, if any. Put him next to Gordon and you have the best backcourt both offensively and defensively in the league for the next five years.

    Not sure what I'd give up for him, but if it's jack, the minny pick, kaman, and another young player who isn't Ayon, I'd do it in a second. A freaking second.

    Seriously, imagine lining up Gordon, Rondo, and Ariza patrolling the perimeter on defense. Tell me that isn't something you want to see.
    Personal distaste for Rondo aside that would make me not like it, my position is not that I would or would not like to see it.

    I just think there are likely better options to be had by waiting. What those are are yet to be determined, but with a nice fraction of the NBA available via free agency and trade each season, I'd take my chances with Demps and options over Rondo and what-you-see-is-what-you-get-for-years.

    Let's assume this was a normal offseason before this season. Then it would have been in summer of 2011. Two years prior that was the summer of 2009. Think about where `we' were and where the NBA was. Now think about all that has changed: Kim, Paris, and Lindsey getting together in the 305, Mr. Anthony doing it his way, OKC rising, and our flash being firmly returned to the pan. Dallas took a title and promptly returned to exactly what they were before (I hate Dallas), the Lakers may have finally starting using the checkbook, and the Clippers have found a new height from which to fall.

    Given all those changes, what will be different 2 years from summer 2011 when both halves of the CBA are in effect?

    I just prefer us not buying the first shiny thing we see that will work, will put butts in seats, yada yada yada. This pseudo-capital isn't burning a hole in my pseudo-pocket. Get a decent pick from it, as I said above, that may change the picture, as that's a net swing of 2 draft picks from what was proposed.

    And for the record, that isn't something I want to see. What I want to see, wins, titles, branding, etc. aside, is all alley-oops all the time. For us, against us, with the heads of honeybees, I don't care. Give me some alley oops.

    And if that answer doesn't count, that isn't something I want to see. Rondo is limited. I wasnt to see a smart and hard working point guard. I don't care if he's good at all sorts of things, I want to see a smart guy who'll work. There are better options than Rondo for that particular box. Yes, Rondo's assist to turnover ratio for his career is 50% better than Jack's career average, but this season is comparable to Rondo's career average, and Rondo is down, but that's ok. It's the hot-headedness.

    Jack has a good deal to learn, and he's smart, but we've all seen smarter. I just don't see Rondo flourishing under Monty under these circumstances. Those who work hard will play. What good is he to me if I don't think he'll play? That's just my assessment.

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  20. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by LoneyROY7 View Post
    I personally think the good stats on a bad team is a complete BS argument. It's completely relative to the player.

    Does that mean Kevin Love's numbers are "empty"? Was Blake Griffin's rookie season last year meaningless? When D-Wade was putting up monster numbers and the Heat were a fringe play-off team, was he any less of a player?

    You also have to look at efficiency. It's not as if Gordon was shooting 40 percent and putting up 20 shots a game to get his points. He took 16.9 shots a game, while shooting 45 percent from the field and 36 percent from three.

    Oh, and Marcus Thornton? he's putting up 16.4 ppg on 39.6 percent shooting on a BAD TEAM. He's not on Gordon's level. Not even close.
    he is a good player..i am not saying that..but history suggests that his stats were probably inflated since he was playing on a bad team

    also the hornets play at the 2nd slowest pace in the league...that will also be a factor in his "stats" moving forward

  21. #96
    The Franchise Contributor GeauxPelicans's Avatar
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    Solid post 42, Rondo, Gordon (if he signs today) and Oak would pretty much crush our long term flexibility but one person I want gone as soon as possible is Jack. Maybe he and Gordon can gel next to each other, but I don't see that happening

  22. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by CP4MVP View Post
    he is a good player..i am not saying that..but history suggests that his stats were probably inflated since he was playing on a bad team

    also the hornets play at the 2nd slowest pace in the league...that will also be a factor in his "stats" moving forward
    You'll have to do better then "history suggests"...his efficiency is clearly there, and he's 23 years old for Pete's sake. This isn't an aging player on the decline we're talking about here.

    And you're pace argument is, for all intents and purposes, nullified by the fact that he will be getting more touches as the go-to-guy under Monty and the Hornets then he did with the Clippers.

  23. #98
    Pretty cool. Mr. West's Avatar
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    See, this is exactly why I asked. Some people would love to have Rondo while others wouldn't come near to giving our pick for him. How good is Rondo? He would definitely be better than any PG we could get in the draft. What I would be scared of is getting our two picks and this draft being so PF heavy that we get a PF with our first pick and settle with someone we don't want with our second pick because the best available is a PF. So we trade one pick for Rondo and then pick up a high scoring PF with our other pick, not necessarily Sullinger, but he is a great low post scorer, so he is who comes to my mind first.

    Rondo/Vasquez
    Gordon/Henry
    Ariza/Aminu
    Sullinger/Ayon
    Okafor/Smith?

    I like that lineup a ton and I think it would probably be the best defensive team in the NBA. Rondo has shown he can be explosive scoring wise, Gordon would be our number one option and Sullinger could score in the post.

  24. #99
    Mostly Harmless 42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP4MVP View Post
    for the record, i really like gordon...but we don't exactly know what we have in him yet...i don't care about "stats" on bad teams...let marcus thornton average 20 all he wants on a bad kings team
    If you don't mind, kind sir, I'd love to just agree with you here.

    Speaking as someone who's run a number or two in his day, I can say that there are two kinds of data, and they need not be mutually exclusive. One kind describes what happens. The other kind give some sort of information about something else, past, present or future.

    Game stats tell you a good deal, but not everything, about what happened in a game. Not all of them, however, give an indication of what will happen. All the stuff about being the man, being the other option, using too many possessions and letting the other team's coach see a simpler game to throw defense and rotations at, etc.

    But, just like with bad teams, you have to be careful with players from good teams. Was James Posey everything he was supposed to be? His record before the trade is now exactly what it was then, yet we see some data as more meaningful . . . it was right there all along . . . whereas maybe we saw other data that made some think he was the missing piece before things really went south.

    Marcus Thornton killing it offensively in terms of points scored means nothing if his usage is 23% and he's scored 230 points on 207 shot attempts, or 1.11 points per shot. Ariza, for instance, has a usage of 18% and has scored 107 points on 98 shot attempts, or 1.09 points per shot. If anyone things that's a huge difference, Jack has scored 266 points on 228 shot attempts, or 1.17 points per shot with a usage of 23%.

    No one is getting superstar treatment, none of them is the only option. Both of them have a backcourt mate and at least one decent big. It's a question of picking out the story and then deciding what is going to `transfer' into some other situation to some extent.

    With bad teams, there's too much badness and not enough goodness, so the untrained eye can see what it will, often assuming all the goodness is in the player of interest and all the badness elsewhere.

    With good teams, there's not enough badness to see because there are better options, so the untrained eye doesn't realize what it's not seeing, what's being masked.

    Yes, Marcus and Trevor and doing about the same thing for their teams on offense, but Trevor is hurting less (under 1.2 points per shot is not so hot) with his lower usage rate. Yes, those figures are normalized for playing time, so the lower usage is not due to missed games.

  25. #100
    Mostly Harmless 42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. West View Post
    See, this is exactly why I asked.
    Excellent question, troublemaker.

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