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Thread: Thunder acquires Tyson Chandler from the Hornets {multi-merged reactions}

  1. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by Saints Fan in A
    Good find.
    did you read it all?

    Beyond that, the Hornets fans don't have much to look forward to. Losing Chandler, and even passing on re-signing Wilcox and Smith, will still leave New Orleans well over the salary cap. All this does is keep the team from paying the luxury tax, and there's nothing a fan can take from that.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by Saints Fan in A
    I still don't see him being "too" expensive. First, he's entering free agency a year too early. With this economy and the big payday coming in 2010, I don't think the offers will be out to him like some here think. He was a backup averaging 19 minutes per game on a 13 win team. Not sure why that is but it isn't conducive to earning your big payday.
    you have to ask yourself why the hornets would trade for a guy who had an expiring contract if they really were thinking about keeping him

    you'd think that if they wanted to keep salary in this trade, they'd have gone with a guy who was already signed for a few years.

    ask yourself why he had to have an expiring contract

  3. #703
    TC did not look right this year. Toes are tough injuries, especially for active 7 footers. Remember when Phill Jax told Bynum to watch tape of Tyson and pay attention to how much he moves his feet? I don't think there is much good game tape from this season. If he can't play at last year's level, then this was a good deal that will help us in the short term and be a wash in the long term. (Because, as I understand, we wont be able to resign Wilcox or Smith even if we wanted to be cause they have to be renounced to avoid the tax)

    But if TC could have turned his season around and played at last year's level -- and we'll see what happens in OKC --they made a huge mistake.

    My inclination would have been to play out the season and, if it didn't improve, trade him in the off-season. Of course, if you think he's so damaged that he could end up missing a lot more games or otherwise hurting his value and your season, then waiting would be a mistake.

    We'll see what happens. Looks like a loser move now. But it could end up looking okay. I cant see this team getting past the 2nd round either way.

  4. #704
    Make it happen Chouest Contributor NIH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saints Fan in A
    I still don't see him being "too" expensive. First, he's entering free agency a year too early. With this economy and the big payday coming in 2010, I don't think the offers will be out to him like some here think. He was a backup averaging 19 minutes per game on a 13 win team. Not sure why that is but it isn't conducive to earning your big payday.
    Look at the bigs in FA, he's easily in the top 1-3 available and will get a fairly large contract. And again, if the Hornets wanted to shed a $10mil contract it wouldn't make sense to sign another center for a high cost. You said we could not afford to have a draft pick but you think we can re-sign Wilcox?

  5. #705
    I agree, chandler was way too overpaid for the production he was giving us. I mean honestly wilcox gives up the same pt production as chandler did. There is no way in hell he shouldve been the second highest paid player. I didnt want to see him go but this is the only logical move to make in order avoid the cap. The same can be said for peja also, but we just have to pray in order to get rid of that contract. And we really dont have to go after a center, cause honestly there is only 2 centers worth mentioning in the west, Bynum and Oden, of which arent going anywhere, after that the next center would d12 and we could forget about him. So if the hornets wanted to we could go after a good to great pf to ascend to the next level along with a boost for bench purposes

  6. #706
    Quote Originally Posted by NIH
    Look at the bigs in FA, he's easily in the top 1-3 available and will get a fairly large contract. And again, if the Hornets wanted to shed a $10mil contract it wouldn't make sense to sign another center for a high cost. You said we could not afford to have a draft pick but you think we can re-sign Wilcox?
    Easily? You're sadly mistaken kind sir. I'll give you a list so you don't have to make mistakes like this again:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/s...eeAgents-09-10

    Drew Gooden, Rasheed Wallace, Brandon Bass, Lamar Odom, Jermaine O'Neal, Carlos Boozer, Mehmet Okur, Shawn Marion....and those are just the unrestricted guys. Nevermind the trading that will go on before the 2010 offseason. While you're on the list, check out the 2010 bigs. It's a better list. Wilcox won't be the hot property you think he is unless he goes off, something that Chandler hadn't shown the ability to do this season.

    And, I said that a team that is shedding salary to have free agent flexibility is not looking or lottery tickets. Either comprehend it all or don't quote any of it. Taking a comment out of context is silly considering it's in print in totality.

  7. #707
    Make it happen Chouest Contributor NIH's Avatar
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    Besides Bass, Okur, and O'Neal, all those guys are over the hill and won't be getting big contracts. You can include Odom in there but L.A will probably re-sign him.

  8. #708
    Make it happen Chouest Contributor NIH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saints Fan in A
    Easily? You're sadly mistaken kind sir. I'll give you a list so you don't have to make mistakes like this again:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/s...eeAgents-09-10

    Drew Gooden, Rasheed Wallace, Brandon Bass, Lamar Odom, Jermaine O'Neal, Carlos Boozer, Mehmet Okur, Shawn Marion....and those are just the unrestricted guys. Nevermind the trading that will go on before the 2010 offseason. While you're on the list, check out the 2010 bigs. It's a better list. Wilcox won't be the hot property you think he is unless he goes off, something that Chandler hadn't shown the ability to do this season.

    And, I said that a team that is shedding salary to have free agent flexibility is not looking or lottery tickets. Either comprehend it all or don't quote any of it. Taking a comment out of context is silly considering it's in print in totality.
    They're looking to get under the luxury tax this year not the salary cap, and like the original blogger stated the Hornets HAVE to start drafting better. Every sucessful small market franchise has a good scouting department because they know the draft is the way they have to build teams. Bower tried to build this team with older FAs and look where we're at now.

  9. #709
    Just add fans Contributor Harvey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NIH
    Bower tried to build this team with older FAs and look where we're at now.
    He had to. It was a direct order from the top. The Hornets needed to return as contenders. If they would have returned as a rebuilding team, it would have been a long term disaster and one none of us who love the team because they are New Orleans' team would be happy with.

  10. #710
    Okay...what is your point? At a salary of $64.6M for the team, some $6M+ under the luxury tax threshold. That is a little flexibility. And many of our core guys are drafted guys. Paul, West, Armstrong, Wright, drafted by the Hornets.

  11. #711
    Make it happen Chouest Contributor NIH's Avatar
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    They were already playoff contenders without Mo Pete or Posey.

  12. #712
    Make it happen Chouest Contributor NIH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saints Fan in A
    Okay...what is your point? At a salary of $64.6M for the team, some $6M+ under the luxury tax threshold. That is a little flexibility. And many of our core guys are drafted guys. Paul, West, Armstrong, Wright, drafted by the Hornets.
    Wright just racks up DNPs and Armstrong is a servicable backup, calling them core members is a huge stretch.

    6mil under the luxury tax and still above the salary cap, it is not the same thing.

  13. #713
    Just add fans Contributor Harvey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saints Fan in A
    Okay...what is your point? At a salary of $64.6M for the team, some $6M+ under the luxury tax threshold. That is a little flexibility. And many of our core guys are drafted guys. Paul, West, Armstrong, Wright, drafted by the Hornets.
    Lets not forget that we have the ability to continue dealing too. If we decide we want Wilcox back, there are ways we could approach that. Everyone acts like every move leaves us in a final destination...well thats not the case....managing an NBA roster is a constant journey.

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleven79
    This is because Wilcox is still on his rookie contract. He'll make nearly as much as Tyson next season and he's not CLOSE to being as good of a player.

    Tyson is underpaid, not overpaid. In fact, the only guys on our team who are overpaid are Peja, MoPete, and Posey. And only Peja is GROSSLY overpaid.

    CP3, David West, Tyson, Rasual are all underpaid vets.
    No, he is not on his rookie contract. He received an extension in Seattle. This is his seventh year in the league. And he's very close to being as good of a player. TC was not worth his salary this year, and had his play continued like what we saw the first 30 games he played, he would not have been worth it going forward.

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by NIH
    Wright just racks up DNPs and Armstrong is a servicable backup, calling them core members is a huge stretch.

    6mil under the luxury tax and still above the salary cap, it is not the same thing.
    I don't remember mentioning getting under the salary cap and if I did, it's semantics anyway. Point is, while you cling to every word, there is flexibility. The Hornets have $14M+ coming off of the books at the end of this season and another $12M following next season. Flexibility will come. We weren't a championship contender with Tyson Chandler and had little room to improve, if any, with him on the books. With that being the case, sometimes, you have to take one step backwards to take two steps forward.

    And it makes the point...we're about 50/50 on draft picks, which might be better than the league average but still not good enough. With free agents, even minimum guys, you often know what you're going to get. The only core guy who didn't show up this year was TC. Paul is better. West is better. Rasual is better. Armstrong is slightly better. Peja is actually playing. Posey does what he does. TC didn't show up. And it's costing us in more ways than one.

  16. #716
    Don't post much, but just wanted to get this off my chest.

    Work yourself up all you want about Chris Wilcox's potential or the possibility of adding some key free agents down the road with the cap space, but, for today, it sucks to be a Hornets' fan.

    We traded away a top 10 center, a great interior defender, and a locker room leader, for two of OKC's bench players. Hell, the headline on ESPN read "Hornets trim salary, ship Chandler to Thunder." That's pretty bad when the headline doesn't even mention one of the three guys we traded for.

    And, it's not like this move gets us completely out of salary trouble. Which means, unless Wilcox and Smith are good enough people to resign next year for next to nothing, they're gone in 30 games. So, that's it. Basically, Tyson Chandler for nothing.

    Maybe in 2 weeks we'll all be happy with the way this all worked out. I hope so. But, I just can't figure out the people who love this trade. Geez...at least wait a week or so to see what these guys add to the team because, right now, we're hanging our hats on the hope that CP3 will turn Wilcox into a stud.

    Lastly, when the players paid to represent this franchise, the guys who are in every meeting and at every practice, can't seem to put a positive spin of this move, it ain't good. To hear David West talk, for today at least, this team just got worse.

  17. #717
    Make it happen Chouest Contributor NIH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saints Fan in A
    I don't remember mentioning getting under the salary cap and if I did, it's semantics anyway. Point is, while you cling to every word, there is flexibility. The Hornets have $14M+ coming off of the books at the end of this season and another $12M following next season. Flexibility will come. We weren't a championship contender with Tyson Chandler and had little room to improve, if any, with him on the books. With that being the case, sometimes, you have to take one step backwards to take two steps forward.

    And it makes the point...we're about 50/50 on draft picks, which might be better than the league average but still not good enough. With free agents, even minimum guys, you often know what you're going to get. The only core guy who didn't show up this year was TC. Paul is better. West is better. Rasual is better. Armstrong is slightly better. Peja is actually playing. Posey does what he does. TC didn't show up. And it's costing us in more ways than one.

    We don't have room to improve now, without Chandler and we won't until Peja/Mo are off the books. This move wasn't about production, whether you want to kid yourself or not, Shinn needed to get under the luxury tax and he did it.

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by NIH
    Besides Bass, Okur, and O'Neal, all those guys are over the hill and won't be getting big contracts. You can include Odom in there but L.A will probably re-sign him.
    I would love Lamar on our team actually, for whatever reason, I have always been a big fan. But he has already come out publically and stated that he will take a paycut to stay with the Lakers.

    Who knows? The only reason he said so is because the Lakers are winning. Maybe if this shakeup turns things around, Wilcox and Smith won't mind resigning for cheaper value, to help this team succeed?

    As for the trade itself, I understand the monetary issues. I was a big Chandler fan, sad to see him go, but he hasn't contributed much this season. I think we'll do fine with Wilcox and Smith, and I'm hoping they'll like it here in NO and won't mind taking a paycut.

  19. #719
    Which is his prerogative even if that was the only motivation of the deal. I don't live in fantasy land. I see people losing their jobs every day. Even teams that historically toss money around, like the Redskins, are laying people off. I never said that it was purely a basketball decision. That said, I see the possibility of this team improving, even if only for the short term, with this deal. I also see the ability to do something bigger after 2010.

  20. #720
    New Orleans center Tyson Chandler, who was offered to the Bulls for Joakim Noah and Drew Gooden, instead was sent to Oklahoma City for ex-Bull Joe Smith and Chris Wilcox.
    http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=272903

    They were looking for size, not just cap space. Noah wouldn't have been an expiring. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how these guys produce.

  21. #721
    Just add fans Contributor Harvey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NIH
    This move wasn't about production, whether you want to kid yourself or not, Shinn needed to get under the luxury tax and he did it.
    I disagree...it was all about production. Shinn and the Hornets were prepared to be over the cap and facing a luxury tax payment IF the team were true Finals contenders. TC's injuries and production issues put a fly in the ointment. If TC were the TC we expected...and without long term health concerns, Shinn bites the bullet. It's not like they suddenly realized they had put themselves in this payroll situation.

  22. #722
    The Opinion Business   HR.com Associate  
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    Gentlemen !

    Guys ! Many folks only place a "stat value on a player" You can't just evaluate a player based on pts and rebs etc ( not all players).What about players that help influence where you will force the ball defensively ? Guys that force the driver to take a different path ? Bigs that are mobile enough to defend the pick and roll and recover ? Off the ball defenders ? These stats are not in the box score....

    Value comes in different ways and stats are influenced by roles and the guys you play with. When does a guy score ? In close games ? In games that are blowouts ? How many points and rebs in crucial moments ? Is he on the floor during these moments ? I could go on and on.

    Some of you guys are nit picking back and forth. I will tell you this. One of these new guys better be able to defend in P& R situations.......DEFENSE better be a PASSION.
    REBOUNDING & DEFENDING THE LANE !!! ( which includes "off the ball " as well.
    Those are the two HUGE concerns not scoring big numbers daily from the CENTER position.
    1-What does not move is dead.What has speed,and mobilty has more possibilities,more life...quickness creates luck.

    2- Your Defense is only as good as your HELP/ROTATING defenders.

    3-Games are won while the ball is in the air.


    4- You design your roster to win a 7 game series not a one game confrontation.

  23. #723
    Paying a four million dollar luxury tax penalty is nothing if you're getting playoff revenues. But if you're a middle of the road team, what's the point?

  24. #724
    It's kind of hard to intimidate from the bench after picking up two quick fouls four minutes into the first quarter every night...

  25. #725
    Just add fans Contributor Harvey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saints Fan in A
    It's kind of hard to intimidate from the bench after picking up two quick fouls four minutes into the first quarter every night...
    ...or in street clothes.

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