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Thread: When did P.J. Brown become a franchise player?

  1. #1
    Best Coach Ever ULsaint's Avatar
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    When did P.J. Brown become a franchise player?

    I'm dumbfounded. I agree that the casual fan might have blasted the ownership if they let Brown go, but I also guarantee you Spurs fans would have had a coronary had they wasted $40 million on an overpaid 33-year-old defensive specialist.

    Despite this siging, I still think the owners are cheap. The only reason they resigned Brown is the local connection (which they grossly oversetimate). PJ Brown is not a name the casual fan knows. He is NOT a primetime player. He is a role player, not a franchise player.

    For the right price, he is an asset to any team. For $40 million, he is a cap killer.

    It absolutely disgusts me to see us throw that amount of cash to a player that has the following:

    1. Absolutely no back-to-the-basket game at all.
    2. Coming off a horrible postseason.
    3. 33 and looking it.
    4. No chance of getting better.
    5. For all the talk of him being a banger, plays incredibly soft at times.

    These are just a few reasons this signing makes no sense. Brown is no better than a guy like Charles Oakley in his prime and IMO he's not as good.

    Why throw so much money at him when guys, who IMO, are much better like Brad Miller are still out there? Yes, Miller is a C but I'm just making the point that we didn't HAVE to sign Brown.

    The Hornets biggest weakness is an undersized 2-guard and scoring off the bench.

    How did this signing help at all?

    What was a smarter thing to do? I think we should have re-signed Moiso for a relatively cheap contract and paired him with West at PF. IMO Moiso is already a better player than Brown and he has something Brown does not- UPSIDE!!!!

    If it flops so what? You didn't spend that much money. Resigning Brown says you don't have much confidence in West for one and it takes you out of the running for any other decent players like Maggette.

    I would much prefer a PF tandem of West and Moiso with a SG like Maggette than Brown and Wesley.

    This move says one thing- the Hornets are happy with the status quo. They are unwilling to take risks.

    You know where that gets you? Another first-round loss in the playoffs. But who cares? They will draw decent and the owners can always claim they are competitive.

    Finally, I am not chicken little. The Hornets do have some talent, but not as much as some on here want to think. We are a distant fourth in talent in the Eastern Conference now. Then again, so what? We will be getting slaughtered out west in a year.

    The Nets, Pistons and Pacers are all much better and the Cavs will be screaming down our necks in a year or two. The Raptors might also have a nice comeback season.

    I just don't think this was a smart siging for the future of the franchise. We are now stuck with an aging lineup with little hope of siging fresh young athletic players.

    WE have NO athletes other than Davis and Alexander. If we lose Moiso we will be down to just two athletic players and we want to run? HA!

    I hope this works out, but I think it was a mistake. Flame away.

    We paid Brown like a difference maker which he is not. You pay $10 million to a player that takes over a game not a nice guy that can occasionally score you a double double.
    Last edited by ULsaint; 07-13-2003 at 12:14 PM.

  2. #2
    ...we get to go McDonalds
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    Well, you do bring up good points, but you gotta remember that without P.J. we would potentially be in pretty deep ****. West doesn't have the body and power. Moiso isn't ready yet and may never be. He could be one of those players who shows up on a few occasions and you think he's going to be special only to see him screw up countless times. I would love to sign a PF who is a legit scoring option, but none exist on the market. And don't forget, it was 34 million, not 40.

    All in all, we will return all 5 starters. That's great news for a team who without injury is probably the best team in the east...if Milicic doesn't light it up anyway.

    I know P.J. will come to play, so I don't mind paying a little over what his real worth is.

  3. #3
    In Time Out Harvey Hornet-x's Avatar
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    This no name PF sure was coveted by several teams and on every last NBA piece on Sportscenter in the past two weeks...

    The max to Baron

    Re-sign PJ

    The owners are cheap? It just doesn't make an iota of sense. You bring up some interesting points in your arguments, but they lead more to the side of being questionalbe personnel decisoins rather than being cheapl The Hornets are shelling out money.
    Last edited by Harvey Hornet-x; 07-13-2003 at 12:36 PM.

  4. #4
    Ester aka Ms-Freek-A-Leek STHornet's Avatar
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    I wanted Maggette. P.J. is ok but he is 33 years old. Maggette is 23 years old and he just came off a 17 PPG season last year. He would had been a prize signing if we could have signed him.
    Trade Mags & Rodgers for Lamar Odom

  5. #5
    momentary lapse of re-brand NYKF Hornet's Avatar
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    Who is worth the money they make in the NBA?

    I just don't get it. What does this team have to do. No one else was available at PF. PJ WAS the biggest name on the board for that position available. What is the problem? Why is this so hard to enjoy?

    If I woke up yesterday and came to the board and read that we traded Mash or BD for Speedy, I would be upset and question the move. But to resign PJ, after so many good teams were after him, and then see it as a bad thing doesn't make sense to me. Are Mo and West that much better than PJ, that this was a bad deal? Are the Spurs, Mavs, Heat, Magic, etc just dumb for trying to get PJ?

    For the record, if we did get Maggette, we wouldn't have enough cap space next off season to improve at the 2 spot, nor would we have been able to keep PJ. This way we keep PJ, and next offseason improve at the 2 spot. Is that really a problem? Is Maggette such an all star calibier 2 guard that we should have ruined our cap situation just to land him. He will wallow away on some losing team, keeping his somewhat high scoring average still not helping his team win. I think DW needs to go, but it has to make sense as well. This team couldn't make the playoffs next year without PJ and his rebounds/defense . . . what FA could give us those things that are available?

    PJ is not making the max, and will be the 3rd highest paid player on the team, and that makes perfect sense b/c he is the 3rd best player on the roster.
    Last edited by NYKF Hornet; 07-13-2003 at 02:54 PM.

  6. #6
    In Time Out say-what-x's Avatar
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    Like I said before, the Hornets are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

    Yes PJ is up in age, and yes this is going to be his last contract. BUT, he was pursued by the Lakers, Spurs & Mavs and was linked to the Nets, Magic, Pistons, Knicks and Heat - just to name a few. He must have something left in the tank for those top tteams to be interested and for the Spurs to go all out to get him.

    In fact, the Spurs are said to have offered PJ a 5 year 40M contract that he turned down to stay with the Hornets for 4 yrs at a contract reported at 34 to 40M.

    So PJ signs with the Hornets and people complain that he's a cap buster and too old. If PJ had not been resigned it would have been the owners are too cheap and don't retain their key players.

    Oh well, better to have an NBA team for some to complain about than none at all I guess.

  7. #7
    Going away.... Contributor West Coast Hornet's Avatar
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    Interesting comments, UL, but...

    What was a smarter thing to do? I think we should have re-signed Moiso for a relatively cheap contract and paired him with West at PF. IMO Moiso is already a better player than Brown and he has something Brown does not- UPSIDE!!!!
    Moiso is already better than Brown? You and I must have been watching a different Hornets team this season, or, perhaps, you tuned into the Hornets only during the post-season and missed the regular season. PJ didn't perform as well as he could have or should have in the post-season, but I think we needed to re-sign him. Maybe the price is high, but I don't see this as a homer-signing. It's merely coincidence in my mind that he is from this area. In fact, it might be a bonus in the sense that maybe PJ is somewhat of a homer wanting to play for and finish his career in his hometown. Nothing wrong with that in my book!


    Time for some football!!!

  8. #8
    momentary lapse of re-brand NYKF Hornet's Avatar
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    "Moiso is already better than Brown? You and I must have been watching a different Hornets team this season, or, perhaps, you tuned into the Hornets only during the post-season and missed the regular season."

    Yeah, I wonder why the Spurs, Lakers, Heat, Magic, and other teams looking to improve their front court didn't just call on MO. Those teams see something in PJ, and not in MO. They are both available, and MO comes with a much cheaper price tag.

  9. #9
    Charter Member Adam the Legend's Avatar
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    Man, some of you {edited-language} and moan so much, it's like talking to my wife!
    the Legend has spoken!

  10. #10
    Best Coach Ever ULsaint's Avatar
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    Originally posted by NYKF Hornet
    "Moiso is already better than Brown? You and I must have been watching a different Hornets team this season, or, perhaps, you tuned into the Hornets only during the post-season and missed the regular season."

    Yeah, I wonder why the Spurs, Lakers, Heat, Magic, and other teams looking to improve their front court didn't just call on MO. Those teams see something in PJ, and not in MO. They are both available, and MO comes with a much cheaper price tag.
    The reason those teams went after Brown and not Moiso is because they are all title contenders and don't need someone to be all-world. They need a complimentary role player that they can count on for solid defense and rebounding. Brown is a steady, if not spectacular, player.

    Moiso on the other hand is young and inconsistent. Moiso will show flashes of brilliance but then disappear like many young players do. I have seen enough from Moiso to believe he has twice the potential Brown ever had. To let Brown go was a risky proposition for a team that likes to play it safe. Going with Moiso and West could indeed turn out to be disastrous, but I believe guaranteeing that amount of money to Brown is equally risky with absolutely no upside.

    At least if you go with Moiso and West there is a chance you could be pleasantly surprised.

    You really have to look at the teams that went after Brown. All of them, with the exception of the Heat are in need of defense not scoring. The Hornets need scorers! Who can put the ball in the hole other than Davis and Mashburn?

    I would like to see some kind of trade involving Mashburn. He does not fit the style of Davis and I do not see him playing well in an up-tempo scheme. I do not advocate giving him away, but I would not cry if we could get good value for him. A player that doesn't need the ball in his hands to score is what we need. Just my opinion.

  11. #11
    Best Coach Ever ULsaint's Avatar
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    The point of this thread was not to bash Brown or the organization only to question the decision of paying a role player superstar money.

    I just don't get it. Is Brown worth 4 or 5 million? Yes.

    Is he worth what we paid? No way in hell. He is an average PF at best. Here's just a few he is not as good as. I guarantee you is salary is higher than several of these players.

    These are in no order, just players I think are better than Brown.
    1. O'Neal
    2. Brand
    3. Malone
    4. Webber
    5. Wallace
    6. Jamison
    7.Stoudamire
    8. Duncan
    9. Howard (maybe)
    10. Gasol
    11. Boozer (about the same)
    12. Hilario (will be better in a year)
    13. Randolph (already better)
    14. A. Davis (the same)
    15. Chandler
    16. Abdur Rahim
    17. Grant (the same)
    18 A. Walker
    19. Martin

    These are just off the top of my head. Brown is at BEST in the second tier of NBA PFs. We pay him $40 million- it makes no sense at all.

    This will come back to kill us like Brian Grant in Miami.

  12. #12
    Best Coach Ever ULsaint's Avatar
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    Originally posted by West Coast Hornet
    Interesting comments, UL, but...



    Moiso is already better than Brown? You and I must have been watching a different Hornets team this season, or, perhaps, you tuned into the Hornets only during the post-season and missed the regular season. PJ didn't perform as well as he could have or should have in the post-season, but I think we needed to re-sign him. Maybe the price is high, but I don't see this as a homer-signing. It's merely coincidence in my mind that he is from this area. In fact, it might be a bonus in the sense that maybe PJ is somewhat of a homer wanting to play for and finish his career in his hometown. Nothing wrong with that in my book!
    He may not be better yet but he will be within a year or two. Brown is going down while Moiso is coming up. But what do we do? We pay the guy going down. I totally see this as two things.

    1. Brown is a local and Shin thinks that matters to people around here. Maybe if it was a freaking superstar or something but most people don't even know who Brown is among casual fans. Ask a local that doesn't follow the team and the will spout of Baron and Mash and that's about it. Brown is only a star on this forum.

    2. Bass is too conservative. Draft pick, which I liked OK, is safe. Brown signing is somewhat safe because at least you know Brown won't go nuts and choke Floyd. He will be the same unspecacular Brown. Eight-10 points and 7-9 boards. Woo hoo. Let's live a little and try to sign someone that can take us to the next level.

    I ask this of those who are in favor of this contract. Are the Hornets better? No, but they will be worse in a year when this salary is killing the cap and we miss out on FAs because we are stuck with a 35 year old Brown averaging 6 points and 7 boards.

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    The state of the Hornets

    Here's how I see it.
    Did we overpay P.J.? Barely, but the way our management sees it is we had to. As much as I hate to admit it we are not considered the most attractive destination in regards to NBA free agents. We don't know for sure what type of player Moiso and West are going to turn out to be. Since, we go to the west next year but better stack up.
    We got the BEST PF that we could of via free agency. What seperates us from so many clubs in the east is that we have two
    players that are 6'11 (and physical) manning our front line in Brown and Maglorie. The other front liner (3) made the all-star game last year. And last, we have a point guard that right up there with the best of them. I agree with many others that we need to upgrade the 2 spot. Not that I don't appreciate DW but since he can back up the PG and the SG and provide scoring off the bench it only makes sense to find another 2 to throw into the mix (man I wish Alexander would have worked out, but that hot dog pisses me off when he comes in the game and starts jacking them up). Remember how well Orlando did against us last year? That is because we need a more athletic backcourt (I wanted Reece Gain es) I am very glad we signed P.J.! But our backcourt needs more athletes. Let's trade Mashburn (since he is worth something, but isn't the best fit in the world; just a thought) for a studly, long-armed athletic shooting guard that can really guard somebody
    lil' coach

  14. #14
    Best Coach Ever ULsaint's Avatar
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    Re: The state of the Hornets

    Originally posted by mark hannie
    Here's how I see it.
    Did we overpay P.J.? Barely, but the way our management sees it is we had to. As much as I hate to admit it we are not considered the most attractive destination in regards to NBA free agents. We don't know for sure what type of player Moiso and West are going to turn out to be. Since, we go to the west next year but better stack up.
    We got the BEST PF that we could of via free agency. What seperates us from so many clubs in the east is that we have two
    players that are 6'11 (and physical) manning our front line in Brown and Maglorie. The other front liner (3) made the all-star game last year. And last, we have a point guard that right up there with the best of them. I agree with many others that we need to upgrade the 2 spot. Not that I don't appreciate DW but since he can back up the PG and the SG and provide scoring off the bench it only makes sense to find another 2 to throw into the mix (man I wish Alexander would have worked out, but that hot dog pisses me off when he comes in the game and starts jacking them up). Remember how well Orlando did against us last year? That is because we need a more athletic backcourt (I wanted Reece Gain es) I am very glad we signed P.J.! But our backcourt needs more athletes. Let's trade Mashburn (since he is worth something, but isn't the best fit in the world; just a thought) for a studly, long-armed athletic shooting guard that can really guard somebody
    Good post I agree. If we could get an athletic SG that can score, I would dump Mash in a heartbeat.
    Then we start Lynch and don't miss a beat. Plus, we'd be a much more solid overall team.

    Mashburn does not fit well with Davis. They both need the ball, and I'd much rather have it in Davis's hands than Mash.

  15. #15
    Originally posted by Adam the Legend
    Man, some of you {edited-language} and moan so much, it's like talking to my wife!

  16. #16
    The Franchise Rich4114's Avatar
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    Well, i heard it was actually going to be $34mil... so that's a little better. PJ is one of those guys that you can't tell if he makes a difference without him or not. He saved us a bunch of games last season. I don't like how he played in the post season at all... but I think the smartest move would have been to go after Kenny Thomas. I would've liked it if they offered Brown like 5mil a year for 2-3 years. If he took it, he took it... if not, then oh well. That was always the Hornets problem, they would never even make offers to their FA's. All they had to do was make an offer to Brad Miller or Eddie Robinson and that would be that. So who knows. They also have a reputation to build up, so that may have something to do with it. Lets just hope they're right and they really CAN go the next step with the team they have. I just hope they don't mess around next offseason with Magliore. They should actually offer him a contract the minute they are allowed to. He'd definitely be worth 8mil a year with no problem. Will we have enough cap room now?

  17. #17
    ...we get to go McDonalds
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    The idea of trading Jamal Mashburn is the single dumbest idea brought up on this forum. Lets trade our best player who carried us for most of the year. Lets trade the one guy we don't have to worry about ever. Lets trade the guy who plays defense, can bring the ball up the court on occasion, can pass the ball, and can shoot. Lets trade the guy who has come up huge in clutch situations. Lets trade the guy who probably out-played everyone in the all-star game while in. Substance wins games, not guys who run on a fast break.

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    Exactly, Jamal Mashburn is one of our best and most consistent players. He is worth is immense in regard to our team's progress. I am not wanting to trade him for a bum. What i am saying is to trade for a star similar to him, a SG with long rangy arms defensive specialist who can run, fill lanes(ours and theirs)
    and guard somebody

    pg B davis wesely pack

    sg (G ood one for mash) wesely CA

    sf lynch west stacy augmon

    pf brown moiso west traylor

    c jamal magloire traylor moiso

  19. #19
    momentary lapse of re-brand NYKF Hornet's Avatar
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    The idea of trading Jamal Mashburn is the single dumbest idea brought up on this forum. Lets trade our best player who carried us for most of the year. Lets trade the one guy we don't have to worry about ever. Lets trade the guy who plays defense, can bring the ball up the court on occasion, can pass the ball, and can shoot. Lets trade the guy who has come up huge in clutch situations. Lets trade the guy who probably out-played everyone in the all-star game while in. Substance wins games, not guys who run on a fast break.
    Primetime, that is what I fear the most. New Orleans Hornets becoming a franchise that rather put a high scoring/no defense team on the floor that loses. Of course we will make the ESPN highlights, and steadly score 100 pts a game . . . but won't make the playoffs. Believe it or not, most fans would rather score points in fast break style offense, than make the conference finals with the Pistons. It's all about image. I'm surprised the trade doesn't include AI.

  20. #20
    In Time Out Harvey Hornet-x's Avatar
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    Mash does it all. He is the Hornets MVP.

  21. #21
    momentary lapse of re-brand NYKF Hornet's Avatar
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    "Mash does it all. He is the Hornets MVP."

    Yet this team would be better if we traded him, to some fans.

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    Exactly, mashburn is that good! If not for him this season we would have fallen apart. I suggest Mashburn because he is that good. We could get a deadly shooting guard via a sign and trade. There are a couple of teems that are saddled up with swingmen, I would not to like to see him trade for someone that all of you guys would be uhappy about ; let's Meggette (iknow he is gone)a line up with
    davis david wesley pack
    maggette david wesley courtney alexander
    lynch augmun west
    brown moisso west
    maglorie

    now there are other sg's that would fill in right if not bettert

  23. #23
    momentary lapse of re-brand NYKF Hornet's Avatar
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    Maggette is not as good as Mash, but I do understand your point. I just don't think trading Mash will solve any problems, just create different ones. To have such a good SF like Mash, it would be a waste to trade him. No matter who we get in a trade, we will still have other needs. It feels more like a trade for change, than to actually help us.

  24. #24
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    alright, alright keep his turtle movin' , basket swishing, small forward with his fallaway 12 footer. I'll buy him.
    But how can we add athleticiscim to our backcourt , because we need it. and I think thats all we need to win the East

  25. #25
    The Franchise rainwater's Avatar
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    Maggette didn't even consider the Hornets so thats a waste of time. He's not a PF either, so thats another waste of time. He plays the 3 postion (Mash's position), so thats a waste of time.

    How would letting PJ go somewhere else help this team?

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