ROUND 2: Kings vs Bulls
PG: Ty Lawson / Brandon Knight / Nate Robinson
SG: Wesley Matthews / JR Smith
SF: Lebron James / Reggie Williams
PF: Kris Humphries / JJ Hickson
C: Marcin Gortat / Jordan Hill / Kosta Koufos
PG- Russell Westbrook/Ramon Sessions
SG- Klay Thompson/Mo Williams
SF- Shane Battier/Corey Brewer/Dahntay Jones
PF- Chris Bosh/Lamar Odom/Gustavo Ayon
C- Joakim Noah/Ben Wallace
Originally Posted by NOH2313
Lawson vs Westbrook, fun matchup.
I give the edge to the Kings for a few reasons.
1- Lebron James. At 33 years old Shane Battier just simply does not have what it takes to guard Lebron. Battier has always been a overrated defender with a career 105 defensive rating, Lebron was at 97 this year. Lebron would be able to go to work offensively and dominate this matchup.
2- Versatile defensively. Westbrook already does enough to take himself out of the game, and when I can afford to shut him down with a guy like Lebron because of the Bulls lack of offensive firepower on the wings, that strongly limits their offensive potential. Westbrook would get very frustrated and take his team out of the game by forcing horrible shots after horrible shots. Klay Thompson is still young and has his faults, Wesley Matthews is a solid defender that could make things very very difficult for the rookie. And if Ty Lawson isn't on Westbrook because of Lebron, he can take the assignment on Battier as he doesn't do much else besides sit in the corner. The Bulls also lack any real low post game as Bosh mainly operates around the elbow or short corner, and Joakim Noah has never really developed any real offensive game.
3- Defensive liability for Bulls. The Bulls lack good perimeter defenders. Westbrook had a defensive rating of 105 this season (107 on his career) which is simply not good. Klay Thompson had a defensive rating of 111 this season, which is horrific. Shane Battier has already been mentioned. Where as I put guys like Wesley Matthews and and possibly the best perimeter defender in the game, Lebron James on the court.
My bench is also better.
This is a tough one - the Bulls have a much better team overall, but how much does the Lebron factor matter? Lebron might be at his peak, but I'm not impressed with his help (and he did need some help from teammates playing very well in his finals run). I'm not worried about Klay Thompson's mediocre D with him most probably on Matthews. I see Lebron scoring a lot here, and also trying to get his teammates involved, but his teammates aren't up to the challenge. I like the Bulls in a close one.
Not up to the challenge? Lawson averaged 16 and 7. Matthews averaging 14. Gortat averaging 15.
Plus JR Smith who can light it up, JJ Hickson who was fabulous for Portland, Reggie Williams who has some real offensive firepower.
Lebron has a LOT of help. People are really underselling my team.
Not to mention I have a much more complete/balanced team. I actually have guys you can throw the ball into the low post, he doesn't. I have more shooters. I have more distributors. I have better defenders (he doesn't have any good defenders aside from maybe Noah, Brewer, and Jones), better rebounders, better shot blockers. There is no question I have a deeper team, a much more athletic team.
Lawson < Westy
Matthews > Thompson
Lebron > Battier
Humphries < Bosh
Gortat > Noah
Knight < Sessions
Smith > Williams
Williams Brewer = Williams would only see minutes while Lebron rests the first few minutes of the 2nd and 4th
Hickson > Odom
Hill > Wallace
People aren't underselling your team, you are overselling it.
Originally Posted by CP3forMVP
Lawson vs. Westbrook- Westbrook
Matthews vs. Thompson- Thompson (I don't believe you tried to say Matthews was the better player, there's a reason POR brought in Crawford last year)
LeBron vs. Battier- No doubt, LeBron
Hump vs. Bosh- Bosh
Gortat vs. Noah- Noah (really, you went with Gortat?)
Knight vs. Sessions- Sessions
Smith vs. Williams- Too close to call
Williams vs. Brewer- Brewer
Hickson vs. Odom- Odom (You can't base this off of one bad season. That's illogical.)
Hill vs. Wallace- Hill
Ayon vs. Koufos- Ayon
So Bulls win 8 of the matchups. Kings win 2. 3 if you take JR over Moe.
It's been proven that LeBron can't win unless he has star teammates around him. Where is his other star? I think its clearer that my team has a distinct edge in two key aspects of the game: Length (my front court is much better) and Depth.
And LOL at "Reggie Williams" and "a lot of offensive firepower" being in the same sentence. He couldn't even bring it in Charlotte. Reaching much?
The smart choice is the Bulls.
You couldn't be anymore wrong.
Are you really trying to argue Klay Thompson is a better all around player than Wesley Matthews? Come on. They brought in Jamal Crawford because they needed bench scoring. Not to mention he played a whole lot of PG (about 50% of his minutes were at PG). Heck, if they brought in Crawford for a reason why did Matthews minutes INCREASE this year? So that point is invalid.
Gortat is a better offensive player. Better back to the basket game, better face up game, better roll game. Gortat allows 0.81 points per play defensively, Noah allows 0.86 ppp. Gortat allows points to be scored 40.5% of the time, Noah allows it 41.2% of the time. Gortat allows 0.76 ppp in post up situations, 39.8% field goals, and 38.8% success rate. Noah allows 0.92 ppp in post up situations, 44.8% field goals, and 45% success rate. They have identical block and rebound rates. Noah has a MUCH higher turnover rate. So all things considered with the factual information provided, plus considering they are very similar in size (6'11 240 for Gortat 6'11 232 for Noah), give me Gortat as the better player.
You're telling me if you play JR Smith and Mo Williams both at the two, it's two close to call? Again, come on. That's clearly JR Smith.
And on Odom, I can absolutely base that off of one bad season.
And what do you mean you have more length on your front court? I have one of the biggest and strongest players in the game in Lebron James. I have Marcin Gortat who is bigger than Joakim Noah and has a 7'4 wingspan. I have Jordan Hill who has a 7'2 wingspan and a 9 foot standing reach. I have Koufos who is 7'1 250, and has a 7'6 wingspan. I have Hickson who is 6'9 with a wingspan at or over 7 feet. Kris Humphries is 6'10 in shoes with a 7'1 wingspan.
A- Your bench is not better. There is a reason you didn't go into detail about that.
Originally Posted by CP3forMVP
B- Bosh would absolutely abuse Humprhies on the offensive end. People forget how dominant of an offensive force Bosh was in Toronto. On my team, he'd get the green light to go at it as the second option on the team, in contrast with being the third option.
C- Noah would abuse Gortat on the boards, creating multiple second chance opportunities.
D- Battier wouldn't be guarding LeBron for 48 minutes. I also have another perimeter defender at the 3 in Corey Brewer. I believe you combine their play, with that rotation, and the fact that LeBron HAS NO OTHER PLAYER TO BAIL HIM OUT, and we'll have more than enough to slow him down (not nullify, but slow down).
E- LeBron has to absolutely dominate for this team to do anything. Do you see that happening night in and night out against a championship caliber team? Go back to the Cleveland tapes to find out.
I'm gonna post the win shares per 48 minutes and total win shares from last season.
So why was Wes Matthews on the trade block last year? And why was Klay Thompson's PER higher last year?
Originally Posted by CP3forMVP
Again you're providing all these numbers to back up your claim about Gortat. Tell me one player who goes to Phoenix and doesn't blow up statistically on the offensive end? Gortat is a better offensive player? Agreed. But Noah could easily limit his offensive production. And Gortat's rebound rates are fluctuated due to the tempo of the Suns offensive and the fact that they have no other big men to take boards away from him hahaha. Noah and Gortat, in my opinion, cancel each other out. Look at career PER and the slightest of differences in PER last season to quantitatively justify that.
Lastly JR and Moe. They are people who absolutely hate JR. You know that. He's a ball hog, takes a number of ill advised shots, and almost never commits himself to the defensive end. He's a headache and an inconsistent player. You're only focusing on the positive things you've done. What about all these negative aspects of his game? And most importantly his attitude. Team chemistry is a essential aspect of team building that you have clearly neglected.
Anyways I have to go now. So if you do respond within the next few minutes, I will be away from the computer. But I'll be back on tonight. Until then.
I can't say this enough. LeBron is incapable of doing it by himself. Theres a reason he went to Miami. You look at the Kings and there is nobody capable of sharing the scoring load with him. Nobody. Cleveland people. Cleveland.
Lol I just find this so funny.
1- Lebron has more around him on this team than he EVER did in Cleveland, which he consistently led into the playoffs.
2- Did Lebron just NOT have one of the best playoffs and Finals in the history of the game, on the heels of DWade and Bosh playing hurt at times?
and to piggy back off a point I didn't get to make earlier, you have Ben Wallace as a 2nd stringer.
It's been a few seasons since Wallace was really even good. He couldn't even log more than 15.8 minutes per game on a team that won just 25 games.
If people spent more time dissecting rosters and actually researching players instead of just looking at names they'd see my team is better. Where's your defense?
Russell Westbrook isn't a good defender. Klay Thompson was horrific defensively. Shane Battier may have been a good defender at one point in time, but not at his age. Bosh is a pretty good defender. Noah is a pretty good defender (though the numbers I posted suggest Gortat is better).
Sessions? No. Williams? No. Brewer? Meh, has the potential to be, but isn't good right now. Odom? He's decent. Wallace? At 37? Pass.
As for JR? I can agree with those points, but it also sounds like you described Mo. Who you are now asking to play out of position, btw, and only 6'1. JR is also kind of underrated defensively. 100 defensive rating this year, compared to 109 for Mo. 1.5 defensive win share for JR, 0.7 for Mo. JR is better.
A- My bench is better. I may have gone too young with Knight, but the PG I wanted was taken a few picks earlier so I had to scramble. I have a very nice combination of offensive and defensive ability. Knight can score, and shoot (38% from deep). We all know about JR Smith, I hear you about his concerns but I also never heard George Karl be against the guy. That means something. Like I stated earlier, Williams is just there to maybe hit a few shots in the like 8 minutes a game he would play. JJ Hickson? Excellent young player. Can finish, very good rebounder, did you see him in Portland? And Jordan Hill, sky high rebound and block rates. Good defensive player. Where as you have two very shot happy PG's at the 1 and 2, a guy that has never really proven his worth in Brewer, a guy like Odom who disappeared this year because he didn't get his way, and Wallace who hasn't been good in years. No question my bench is better.
Originally Posted by NOH2313
B- Bosh is a better offensive player than Humphries is defensive player, but lets not act like Lebron wouldn't dominate Battier. Heck, Lebron can guard fours too.
C- Gortat has a good offensive rebound rate, as does Noah. But Gortat has one of the better rebound and defensive rebound rates in the league.
D- Brewer has never proven to be nearly as good a defender as people thought he would be. He holds a career defensive rating of 110 which is horrible, and was at 106 this year which isn't too good. Lebron would take him easily. No player to bail him out? Lawson is a 37% three point shooter, Matthews is a 38%, Knight is a 38%, JR is at 35%. My team has plenty of guys to help Lebron out.
E- Again, this team is much better than any team he had in Cleveland, which he always led into the playoffs.
Lol ok my ride is running late, so last counter argument for the afternoon.
Picking on Ben Wallace is futile. His role on his team is defense, dirty work, and rebounding. He does all that, and I don't expect major minutes from him. Spending two paragraphs on pointing out his weaknesses/flaws doesn't serve much of a purpose. Secondly, when you were going through my players and dissecting which ones were and weren't good defenders, you basically conceded that 3 of my 5 starters were good defenders. Then, you went through my backups. My backups aren't great defenders. I know that. That's because I wanted more offensive firepower from my second unit. I purposely reached for more offensive potent players to serve a change of pace unit. And to answer this other argument from yours:
"Did Lebron just NOT have one of the best playoffs and Finals in the history of the game, on the heels of DWade and Bosh playing hurt at times?"
First we don't know how hurt Wade was. Second, and much more importantly, it doesn't necessarily matter how much they were hurt, because the presence of both of those players were enough to draw defensive attention. Third, even when LeBron drew the double team, he now had two superior options to dish the ball to him and finish. Fourth, you're focusing on Wade and Bosh's offensive numbers while completely disregarding the impact both players had on the defensive end. And to disregard Bosh's impact on that series is foolish. Without Bosh, the Heat don't win that series, and probably don't even pass Boston. Wade turned around the Indy series with his amazing Game 6 too. LeBron needed those two players. No ifs or buts about it.
Is your team better than the Cleveland version? Sure. But enough to make a difference in big time games against big time opponents? Hell no. Absolutely not.
And 78 brought up win shares:
Lawson- .157 / Westy- .163
Matthews- .104 / Klay- .050
Lebron- .298 / Battier- .104
Humphries- .118 / Bosh- .165
Gortat- .172 / Noah- .223
Knight- .029 / Sessions- .104
Smith- .122 / Williams- .093
Williams- .022 / Brewer- .085
Hickson- .147 / Odom- .014
Hill- .119 / Wallace- .070
Robinson- .111 / Jones- .090
Koufos- .163 / Goose- .142
That is 1.562 for the Kings and 1.303 for the Bulls.
I like how you completely avoided answering any of my above arguments. Secondly if you buy into win shares, look at the front court differential. Third using Odom in your calculation is completely unfair. We both know why that is. Fourth LeBron always distorts these type of statistics. I'll do a calc on the difference between his win share and team win share average later. LeBron doesnt have enough help on your team. These numbers dont dispute that.
Originally Posted by CP3forMVP
Picking on Ben isn't futile. Face the facts, he isn't NEARLY what he once was. His defense and rebounding have fallen off considerately. Say what you want, but the guy is simply not a good player anymore. He went 10 straight years with never having a defensive rating over 98, averaging out at 94 during that ten year stretch. The last seven years he's been over 100 six times and has an average of 103.
Originally Posted by NOH2313
You have one good defender and one decent defender. Russell Westbrook is not a good defender. Klay Thompson is not a good defender. Shane Battier is not a good defender. Chris Bosh is a decent defender. Joakim Noah is a good defender.
Wade was hurt, don't try to wiggle your way around that. It was obvious.
You keep saying Lebron doesn't have enough help, but you've yet to touch on two different things. The first being, he's CLEARLY the best player in the league, and by a wide margin. A guy that can average 29 points, 10 rebounds, and 7 assists while shooting 47% from the field against the second best team on the biggest stage doesn't need that much help, in this league expecially (which I talk about below). But, I have a number of PROVEN guys who can put the ball in the hole one on one and don't need to rely on Lebron. Lawson, Matthews, Smith, Knight, Robinson. He doesn't need NEARLY the help that your top players would need.
Secondly, and probably the BIGGEST thing, you've yet to realize that this particular league isn't what the real NBA is. Do you see any super teams? Because I surely don't. The talent level is much more evenly distributed throughtout this league than it is in real life, meaning in this league, Lebron has more than enough help. It's time you face that fact.
and btw, the topic of using that win share for Odom being "unfair." I'll glady use his winshare from his last year with the Lakers, arguably his best year, and my team still comes out ahead.
Still reaching I see.
Originally Posted by CP3forMVP
I'm going to address the Ben Wallace "argument" one more time. Otherwise, I'm making it out to be a bigger deal than it is. Joakim Noah is 27 years old. That means he is undoubtedly going to be playing major minutes. Secondly, Ben Wallace is on the team to be a poor man's Joakim Noah. All I need from him is rebounds, hustle, and other dirty work for limited minutes. Third, if my team needs to bring out a more offensive big man (which I wouldn't have to against your team), Ayon is more than capable of being a sufficient, if not great backup center. Or if you want me to be more creative, Bosh can slide to the 5 and I can put Odom at the 4. That's the beauty of my front court players; they are versatile.
In terms of the Wade argument, you once again ignored the subsequent arguments that followed. No need to repeat myself if you haven't addressed it. Not to mention you completely ignored Bosh other than saying he was a good defender.
"First we don't know how hurt Wade was. Second, and much more importantly, it doesn't necessarily matter how much they were hurt, because the presence of both of those players were enough to draw defensive attention. Third, even when LeBron drew the double team, he now had two superior options to dish the ball to him and finish. Fourth, you're focusing on Wade and Bosh's offensive numbers while completely disregarding the impact both players had on the defensive end. And to disregard Bosh's impact on that series is foolish. Without Bosh, the Heat don't win that series, and probably don't even pass Boston. Wade turned around the Indy series with his amazing Game 6 too. LeBron needed those two players. No ifs or buts about it."
Yes, I know LeBron is the best player in the league. I didn't say he wasn't. But even the greatest player the world has ever seen, MJ, needed a fellow All-Star (Pippen) to win it all. Looking at your team, you don't have one All-Star on your team. Not one. This year or ever. That is the major weakness on your team. Fatal at that.
Lastly, your "parity argument" was creative. I'll give you that. But you have to be blind not to see that there were a bunch of bad teams. People dropped out, and there were several teams that weren't even seen all the way through. Thus when a lot of bad teams exists, the logical conclusion is that there are a smaller, more select number of good teams. I'm not going to go team by team and assess which ones are good and which ones aren't because of obvious reasons, but it's clear (especially if you looked at the results of Round 1) that there are a smaller number of great teams. You also fail to recognize that there are fewer teams in this simulated league than the NBA, and so players that should be picked in Round 1 in a real NBA simulated league, may have been available in Round 2 in this simulated league, or Rounder 2ers may have been available in Round 4, etc.
Oh and you STILL haven't addressed the "LeBron" skew when it comes to advanced stats.
Face it. You have one good player surrounded by a cast of solid to ok players. Your team does not have enough firepower for LeBron to utilize. And everybody knows he needs that.
As I said, your team doesn't have one other All-Star, this year or any other year. That is huge when your building a team around LeBron. Huge.
By the advanced numbers based on last year's performances.
Kings - 51.8 win shares, 0.133 win shares per 48 minutes
Bulls - 44.4 win shares, 0.119 win shares per 48 minutes.
There is a controversy about Odom. Odom was awful last season due to being out of shape and some other issues. If you put Odom's performance from the previous season, the Bulls go to 54.3 win shares and 0.132 win shares per 48 minutes. However, I don't think we should use that Odom because who knows what kind of player he will be.
CP3forMVP probably should have used Koufos as the backup center over Hill and Robinson as the backup PG over Knight. I give the Bulls the advantage off the bench according to the numbers, but their bench isn't that good either. Both teams are top heavy.
The starters is interesting. Lawson and Westbrook are similar, but the edge goes to Westbrook. Lebron and Matthews have a huge advantage at the wings. Bosh and Noah are better than Humphries and Gortat.
This is really close. I'm gonna give a slight edge to the Kings because Lebron will be the difference.
This is just laughable.
NOH thinks we're stuck in the real life 2012 NBA season. Having multiple All-Stars does not matter in this league because the talent distribution is good. This isn't the real life NBA where you have to have 2 or 3 All-Pro's to compete for a title.
Lol instead of avoiding your opponent's argument and saying its laughable, I will counter your last point again. Let's look at Round 1's winners, and break down how many All-Stars or Former All-Stars each of these teams have:
Hornets: 4 (though I'd say 2 are scrubs now, does have Wall however)
Thunder: 2 (should be 3, but KMart has been snubbed so many times)
Your team is the only one out of all the Round 1 winners that failed to produce at least 2 former All-Stars. The only one. This All-Star counts don't even include future All-Stars in the making such as Paul George or snubs like James Harden. You argue that having multiple All-Stars don't matter, but thats only because you failed to pick a strong enough supporting cast.
Look for your team to produce, you have to rely on LeBron to have amazing nights every time. That isn't realistic. My team on the other hand has two proven All-Stars, a stronger bench, and a much more versatile frontcourt.
Never being a All-Star is far from the end all be all.
For example, the very first team you listed was Detroit.
Their PG, Tony Parker, is a former All-Star. This year he averaged 18 points and 8 assists. My PG, Ty Lawson, averaged 16 points and 7 assists. Sure, I'll go along in saying that Parker is a better player right now. But is he a much better player? Would he be the unanimous decision? Probably not. But would you take Parker and Deng or Lawson and James? Heck, I'm pretty sure Ty Lawson played better last year than Tony Parker did in some of his appearances.
Their C, Roy Hibbert, is a former All-Star. This year he averaged 13 points, 9 rebounds, and 2 blocks. My C, Marcin Gortat, averaged 15 points, 10 rebounds, and 2 blocks. And since you wanted to bring up per earlier, Gortat posted a 21.21 per this year compared to a 19.35 for Hibbert. He also shot 56% this year compared to Hibberts 50%. Who's the better player? Is Hibbert the better player because he made the All-Star game in a weak Eastern Conference compared to the strong Western Conference that is full of bigs? Flawed logic.
Does not being named to a meaningless popularity contest mean that Ty Lawson isn't a good PG? Or that Marcin Gortat isn't a good C? Or at the least have All-Star caliber numbers?
Parker is the better player. He played at an MVP level, and I'm quite sure the majority of GMs would take Parker over Lawson. I get your point, but bad comparison. Brining James into the equation makes no sense because he is the best player in the league. Comparing him to any All-Star would be unfair. Now the Hibbert and Gortat comparison is a much better comparison. However once more, you turn to their offensive numbers while completely ignoring the defensive side of the ball. Let me make it clear that blocks does not in any way indicate that Player A is a better player than Player B. For example, Noah only average 1.3 blocks per game but you yourself conceded that Noah was the better defensive player. Now the All-Star argument wasn't meant to be an "end all be all" argument as you stated. It was simply used as a way to indicate that none of the players on your team have consistently played on an above average level other than LBJ. In other words, you have no proven secondary options. One season isn't enough of a sample size to conclude that such players can serve as a legitimate supporting cast (i.e. Gortat on a Suns team that fluctuates offensive numbers). Players such as Matthews, Gortat, and J.R. will NEVER be more than below average 3rd options, above average 4th options. Where's the help? You don't have enough. Those other teams that do have All-Stars? They have multiple options to go to when one of their stars and struggling. That's where I was going with this. LeBron can't do it on his own night in and night out. You need that second option.