Is Monty responsible for some of Vasquez’s TOs?

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/hornets-coach-monty-williams-needs-settle-one-rotation-011000254--nba.html

“One thing I am certain of is that Williams' many different rotations are not making life easy on Greivis Vasquez. After Wednesday's action, the Hornets starting PG was tied for first place in the NBA with 109 turnovers. New Orleans fans have been overly critical of Vasquez for something that I believe is mostly not his fault. How can Vasquez develop any consistency or rhythm on the court when Monty Williams is trying so many different rotations?”

I was somewhat surprised when I read this article as I did not think about it before. The question is: Is it legit to blame Monty’s tendency not to settle on a fixed rotation affecting Vasquez ability to connect with his team mates? I personally think is mainly Vasquez own fault, but I guess, it would not heart for him to play with the same people for a while (by the way today GV climbed up one spot and is now 3rd in APG in the league, and climbed up from 56th to 17th in A/TO ratio

To me I think it comes down to both.
Lets assess him at seasons end not 32 games in.
Vasquez is what he is as a PG.

I dont care what anyone say's for 1.2M this season there is no one better then him playing PG.
You pay for what you get and I think he is great value.

We have over 17M on wasted salaries this season (Lewis and Carrol).
Next season will be exciting.

other than Aminu being removed the only other changes that have happened to our starter who GV spends most of his minutes playing with was due to injuries. When healthy, you know Robin & Davis are starting at the bigs with Anderson most likely finishing. The main rotation changes happen with our second unit who GV doesn't spend a substantial amount of time with

Of the 91 players averaging at least 30 minutes per game, 17 players (none of which are Lillard) have an AST%/TO% ratio exceeding 2. Only 10 players have a ratio higher than Greivis’ 2.228: George Hill (2.261), Jrue Holiday (2.353), Deron Williams (2.423), Kyle Lowry (2.437), Raymond Felton (2.628), Kemba Walker (2.746), LeBron “I’m not a point guard” James (2.966), Russell Westbrook (3.088), Tony Parker (3.313), and Chris Paul (3.383).

In other words, Greivis passes alot, so he gets a ton of assists and turnovers. He passes effectively though and is likely top 10 among high minute players on some nights.

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Originally Posted by 42

Of the 91 players averaging at least 30 minutes per game, 17 players (none of which are Lillard) have an AST%/TO% ratio exceeding 2. Only 10 players have a ratio higher than Greivis’ 2.228: George Hill (2.261), Jrue Holiday (2.353), Deron Williams (2.423), Kyle Lowry (2.437), Raymond Felton (2.628), Kemba Walker (2.746), LeBron “I’m not a point guard” James (2.966), Russell Westbrook (3.088), Tony Parker (3.313), and Chris Paul (3.383).

In other words, Greivis passes alot, so he gets a ton of assists and turnovers. He passes effectively though and is likely top 10 among high minute players on some nights.

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I would question if he passes "effectively", when you have Ryan Anderson commenting on how open he is with Gordon on the court. His assists, though numerous, mostly never seem to be "effective" nor efficient. You can count on Vasquez missing at least 5 PnR opportunities and just as many fast break opportunities every game. Davis should be getting 5 alley oops per game. The offense slows to a crawl when it has to depend on GV to run it because of what he is asked to do, which ends up in him holding on to the ball until 5 - 8 seconds left on the shot clock.

I kinda do blame Monty for his turns but not because of the rotations. It's more because of the type of offense they ask him to run. It's meant for an attacking, aggresive, quick player like Gordon. Vasquez's assists just come from him having the ball in his hands for so long and his assists hardly result in wide open looks.

Vasquez skills are best either off the ball or in a motion offense like the Timberwolves run.

He must get all those assists on misses, which never happen with any other player, who get theirs on makes.

Gotta be it.

All that stuff about a ton of assists and good ration compared to turnovers is just hooey. Stupid counting-things-that-actually-happen.

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Originally Posted by 42

He must get all those assists on misses, which never happen with any other player, who get theirs on makes.

Gotta be it.

All that stuff about a ton of assists and good ration compared to turnovers is just hooey. Stupid counting-things-that-actually-happen.

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If you completely miss the point, then i'd wager it'd be pretty foolish to reply in a snarky manner.

Toss the ball to Anderson and he still makes a fall away/3 point shot with a hand in his face, it's still an assist. Or, split the hedge, draw some defenders, hit Anderson all alone in the corner or Davis on an alley, still an assist, but much more efficient within the offense. Like causing a turnover that goes out of bounds vs. causing one that starts a wide open fast break.

Get the point? Just counting numbers says nothing. Context. Ask Enron or Sunbeam. You follow? Who am I kidding. It's HR.

I hope, and I mean hope, that watching Gordon split the trap on PnR or driving will rub off on GV and Rivers. In watching them it is obvious they just don't think they can. They are fully capable, just lack confidence in doing it. I wish they could add that to their arsenal. By doing so it will eliminate bad late passes and missed Bigs rolling to basket wide open. It will increase their assist total and potentially add an easy bucket or two/game.

I get your point.

My point is you are completely dismissing facts in favor of your self-appointed-expert opinion of what one of the best passers in the NBA should be doing while ignoring what said NBA passer thinks he should be doing.

I'll go with reality.

Lucky man is absolutely right

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Originally Posted by CP3nDX30

other than Aminu being removed the only other changes that have happened to our starter who GV spends most of his minutes playing with was due to injuries. When healthy, you know Robin & Davis are starting at the bigs with Anderson most likely finishing. The main rotation changes happen with our second unit who GV doesn't spend a substantial amount of time with

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This. Also add in the fact that the other four players on the court with GV are young and/or weren't on the roster last year.

It's probably more that he is a victim of circumstance than bad coaching.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

If you completely miss the point, then i'd wager it'd be pretty foolish to reply in a snarky manner.

Toss the ball to Anderson and he still makes a fall away/3 point shot with a hand in his face, it's still an assist. Or, split the hedge, draw some defenders, hit Anderson all alone in the corner or Davis on an alley, still an assist, but much more efficient within the offense. Like causing a turnover that goes out of bounds vs. causing one that starts a wide open fast break.

Get the point? Just counting numbers says nothing. Context. Ask Enron or Sunbeam. You follow? Who am I kidding. It's HR.

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You have a point. But other point guards get such easy assists, too. It all evens out.

I sometimes hate the tone of this board.

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Originally Posted by jacklvyn

You have a point. But other point guards get such easy assists, too. It all evens out.

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Does it though? If you have better shooters how does it even out with a guy who has a bunch of guys who can't shoot?

Very disappointed that Austin doesn't split that double team. He's rarely decisive. It's like he's trying to not make mistakes more than just play and attack where he sees an opening.

				Net (Per 100 Poss)
Rk	Lineup	Tm	MP	AST	TOV
1	A. Aminu | R. Anderson | R. Lopez | R. Mason | G. Vasquez	NOH	149:37	0.0	+6.5
2	A. Aminu | R. Anderson | R. Lopez | A. Rivers | G. Vasquez	NOH	106:27	-12.3	-0.6
3	A. Davis | R. Lopez | A. Rivers | L. Thomas | G. Vasquez	NOH	98:08	-10.0	+2.3
4	A. Aminu | A. Davis | R. Lopez | A. Rivers | G. Vasquez	NOH	80:33	+3.9	+4.5
5	R. Anderson | X. Henry | R. Lopez | R. Mason | G. Vasquez	NOH	32:22	+0.3	+5.6
6	A. Aminu | R. Anderson | A. Rivers | J. Smith | G. Vasquez	NOH	28:54	-3.6	+7.1
7	A. Aminu | R. Anderson | A. Davis | A. Rivers | G. Vasquez	NOH	24:24	-1.3	-4.6
8	R. Anderson | X. Henry | R. Lopez | A. Rivers | G. Vasquez	NOH	23:15	-25.2	+0.3
9	R. Anderson | A. Davis | A. Rivers | L. Thomas | G. Vasquez	NOH	22:11	+1.1	+0.8
10	R. Anderson | A. Davis | A. Rivers | B. Roberts | G. Vasquez	NOH	22:07	+12.7	-9.2
11	R. Anderson | R. Lopez | D. Miller | A. Rivers | G. Vasquez	NOH	22:02	+14.7	-9.7
12	A. Aminu | R. Anderson | A. Davis | R. Mason | G. Vasquez	NOH	21:36	+12.4	-0.8
13	A. Aminu | R. Anderson | R. Mason | J. Smith | G. Vasquez	NOH	21:16	+19.2	+12.7
14	R. Anderson | A. Davis | D. McGuire | A. Rivers | G. Vasquez	NOH	19:02	-12.7	+20.3
15	A. Aminu | R. Anderson | R. Lopez | D. Miller | G. Vasquez	NOH	18:08	-4.4	+6.8
16	R. Anderson | A. Davis | R. Mason | L. Thomas | G. Vasquez	NOH	16:35	-11.3	-7.8
17	A. Aminu | A. Davis | R. Lopez | R. Mason | G. Vasquez	NOH	14:36	-23.6	+0.4
18	R. Anderson | A. Davis | E. Gordon | R. Mason | G. Vasquez	NOH	14:29	-10.9	-1.6
19	A. Aminu | R. Lopez | A. Rivers | J. Smith | G. Vasquez	NOH	13:23	+7.4	+14.8
20	A. Aminu | R. Lopez | R. Mason | J. Smith | G. Vasquez	NOH	12:43	-1.6	-6.9

Provided by Basketball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 1/4/2013.

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

I sometimes hate the tone of this board.

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You don't say.

So basically this thread is about justifying GV as a starter, create the illusion that one GV's weaknesses isn't actually a weakness, it's a coaching error or flaws of his team mates.

Priceless, next thing will be he's not actually an inferior athlete, Monty's ole man basketball holds him his talents back, slows him up.

GV is the starter now, because we want to compete while the young guys learn and the alternative right now is scary and you want a young team to compete and not get used to losing.

At the same time wanting to win means you want the best possible players, at all positions. This whole idea that GV could be good enough with Eric Gordon is disrespectful to EG, you stick him with a pg who can't whole his own on the defensive end and dishes out more than his share of turnovers.

He's needs a partner to take pressure off of his back and knee and at times bare the brunt, he's doesn't need somebody laying on his leg.

I posted something refuting naive comments in the article in the OP.

GV is among the worst of players getting over 30mpg in many offensice categories and on defense.

Passing, he can do.

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Originally Posted by NemesisKING

So basically this thread is about justifying GV as a starter, create the illusion that one GV's weaknesses isn't actually a weakness, it's a coaching error or flaws of his team mates..

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The point of this thread (at least the point I wanted to make) is not that GV is a good starter, or should be consider one in the NBA. If you read the last part of my post, I said that in my opinion GV’s TOs are not Montys fault, but Vasquez own fault. I just wanted to have other people opinion on that

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Originally Posted by luckyman

I would question if he passes "effectively",

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I absolutely agree that GV defence is terrible, and he is too slow and turns the ball over too much. But the argument that he is not an efficient passer is nonsense. Look, playing in a talented limited team (given Gordon has been out) the only way that a PG gets 9 APG over 30 games is if he is a good distributor, and there is no way around it. You could argue that you can get a lot of points if you shot a lot (like JJ last year when he would take 35 shots and make 20 points), but that does not apply to assists.

Gravy haters coming out. Who do you guys want? It's obviously you don't want him, so I'm just asking.

I want gravy, but not as a starter. I wouldn't mind Kyle Lowry or Brandon Jennings

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

Does it though? If you have better shooters how does it even out with a guy who has a bunch of guys who can't shoot?

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You are funny, making it sounds like now we have a lot of great shooters that shot with a hand in their face more than any other NBA teams.

Getting assists is way more difficult when you are on a bad team.

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Originally Posted by jacklvyn

You are funny, making it sounds like now we have a lot of great shooters that shot with a hand in their face more than any other NBA teams.

Getting assists is way more difficult when you are on a bad team.

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Unless every assists Vasquez dishes out is a lay up or a dunk, the player who takes the shot has to make it in order for it to count as an assist for Vasquez. So yes, it does take two to tangle. Keep in mind Vasquez handles the ball 80 percent of the time so he should really have a good assists rate regardless.

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Originally Posted by jacklvyn

You are funny, making it sounds like now we have a lot of great shooters that shot with a hand in their face more than any other NBA teams.

Getting assists is way more difficult when you are on a bad team.

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I didn't say Vasquez specifically. I said do they all equal out. I'm actually a fan of Vasquez.

Yep, I wish there is a way a counting open-look pass instead of assists, so fans know more about the truth. Probably it is hard to put a standard on "open-look"

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Originally Posted by 42

He must get all those assists on misses, which never happen with any other player, who get theirs on makes.

Gotta be it.

All that stuff about a ton of assists and good ration compared to turnovers is just hooey. Stupid counting-things-that-actually-happen.

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Posts like this are the reason I'm realizing there are better places to get my information. You can get your point across without down talking a board regular.

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Originally Posted by Mr. West

Posts like this are the reason I'm realizing there are better places to get my information. You can get your point across without down talking a board regular.

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It's talking down how?

You think someone just ignoring hard data and positing cases where the assists would be more meaningful with giving a single instance is perfectly fine, but being sarcastic about such an act is talking down to someone?

Sorry, this is incorrect.

Talking down to someone is saying "You are stupid" or just pointing out the obvious. Completely dismissing what someone says that is objective and verifiable, while absolutely imperfect and only part of the story, only to to imagine a case where Vasquez might be even more effective . . . then that imagined case someone makes him a bad player . . . that's is something that people should be calling for change about.

That said, you are a good poster, and it's too bad you'd let that run you off.

The dallas announcers mentioned it tonight, the amount of assists GV has is impressive considering the lack of scoring options we've had all year. Sure, he gets a couple a game to Ryno on wide open threes, but he's a very good passer most of the time. With his age and small contract, we might have found ourselves a steal with this guy.

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Originally Posted by 1501 Girod St.

The dallas announcers mentioned it tonight, the amount of assists GV has is impressive considering the lack of scoring options we've had all year. Sure, he gets a couple a game to Ryno on wide open threes, but he's a very good passer most of the time. With his age and small contract, we might have found ourselves a steal with this guy.

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No one seems to be missing Quincy Pondexter.

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Originally Posted by rubberneck

No one seems to be missing Quincy Pondexter.

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No, not really. Pondexter is okay coming off the bench. Maybe he'll be a 10-12 ppg player in the future, but I'd gladly take Vasquez over him, especially with where our team is right now.

Everyone is all excited about GVs points and assists lately, but it seems to me that the fact that for the first time in the whole year Vasquez has 3 consecutive games with less than 3 TOs (2, 2 and 1). This is really important if it becomes a trend, as according to Monty, the main thing he wanted Vasquez to improve is the number of TOs.

The question is, has he being lucky, or are his TOs genuinely going to be reduced that much with Gordon in court? It would be interesting to see how many TOs he gets today against Parker and Manu.

Gordon is handling the ball in clutch situations. Like Monty said everyone is now in their proper place on the team. People can play their game, and the team is showing how much better it can be when a roster plans comes to fruition.

Turnover aren't just limited to Vasquez. The team as a whole has been very turnover prone. When you take care of the ball as a team, you'll be in most games.

Gordon benefits everyone in thus team right down to the car park attendants.

Let us give thanks real quick.