The Snowball Effect

Posted this on another thread, but I was curious to hear everyone's opinions on this topic.

"Honestly, I think this sort of lackluster play is going to be commonplace this year. And that's because of the snowball effect EJ's injury causes. Our roster is top-heavy. You lose one of those pieces, and that leads to a redistribution of minutes to players who shouldn't sniff the court. Add that to the fact that Monty sort of sucks at piecing together efficient lineups and disaster is sure to follow. Let's face it. We have one above average bench player in Ryno and his decision making/shot selection has been horrific. The fact of the matter is Rivers hasn't improved, Ajinca is still a fouling machine, Babbitt can't play a lick of defense (and Monty continues to play him at the 3 for some stupid reason), Miller is a scrub, and Salmons exists. We have no depth. And that sort of weakness is pronounced when a starter goes out for an indefinite period of time."

Well, some believe that the team would be better without EG. We saw a glimpse of that last night. So do you think that will be the norm or just an anomaly? What some believe is our core 5 played last night with little success. If anything, EG being out sheds light that our core is flawed and that we need to insert more good players on the team not just talented ones.

BTW - I'm not really a Gordon fan even though I come off as one. I don't think he should be on this team along with Tyreke. I'd get rid of them both if I were in charge

Our bench has flaws, and I hope we are in contention towards the end of the season, because if we are, when vets are bought out they go to contenders who give them a chance to win. Being in contention might give us a shot at one of them. Other than that, I am not sure how we improve the bench during the season given our list of assets.

And Hansens For snoball of choice.

We lost that game as a team. No one is free of blame. It might take a few games to adjust. THIS is what happens when you have a short bench. When it is time to throw these guys to the wolves...stuff happens. The COACH has to let them know he trusts them...even when they make mistakes. Just like the starters.

Coach in meeting should be, "No one stopped the guards, no one stopped the rebounding, no one played great defense, no one really shot well or shared the ball. But hey...go get'em next time I believe you can do this.

That team didn't have collison or gay and we still lost. Playoffs are not happening until gordon is off the roster, simple as that, might as well cheer for the tank. The soonest we could possibly make a playoff push is the 2016-2017 season and hopefully by 2020 we will have made it farther than before. I know 2020, sounds ridiculous, but that how long it will take to build around AD once we get all these crap pieces off our roster. I am finally just going to start being realistic instead of optimistic/biased. There's just no way with this current roster we will make the playoffs this year or the next. The west is full of experienced teams who know how to close out games, and win home games against banged up opponents. Gonna be a long long long road unfortunately..

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Originally Posted by MMEmbreno

That team didn't have collison or gay and we still lost. Playoffs are not happening until gordon is off the roster, simple as that, might as well cheer for the tank. The soonest we could possibly make a playoff push is the 2016-2017 season and hopefully by 2020 we will have made it farther than before. I know 2020, sounds ridiculous, but that how long it will take to build around AD once we get all these crap pieces off our roster. I am finally just going to start being realistic instead of optimistic/biased. There's just no way with this current roster we will make the playoffs this year or the next. The west is full of experienced teams who know how to close out games, and win home games against banged up opponents. Gonna be a long long long road unfortunately..

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http://i.minus.com/ibqKXm3B7PUbsz.gif

Without Gordon, who is obviously and ridiculously under appreciated around here, Either Holiday or Evans needs to step up to an all star level. They have to be counted on to make plays at crucial times and they just aren't doing it. They instead become bone headed and miss easy shots or turn the ball over. Even when Gordon was in a shooting slump he did other things this team sorely needed. Last time they played Sac, be drove for a layup, hit a mid range J, then a 3 all at crucial times in the 4th quarter.

The other back court starters need to pick up the slack. Maybe last night was a wake up call that they have to step it up.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Without Gordon, who is obviously and ridiculously under appreciated around here, Either Holiday or Evans needs to step up to an all star level. They have to be counted on to make plays at crucial times and they just aren't doing it. They instead become bone headed and miss easy shots or turn the ball over. Even when Gordon was in a shooting slump he did other things this team sorely needed. Last time they played Sac, be drove for a layup, hit a mid range J, then a 3 all at crucial times in the 4th quarter.

The other back court starters need to pick up the slack. Maybe last night was a wake up call that they have to step it up.

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I am so confused. How is Gordon under appreciated? The consensus seems to be that he is:

1. Injury prone
2. Overpaid for what we need (that 15 mil would be utilized better elsewhere)

Aren't those arguments stronger than ever?

There are maybe one or two people who bring up the 'Heart in Phoenix' stuff or that say he is so bad that we are better with Darius Miller or Jimmer.

The rational people all say what I listed above. No personal vendetta. No bashing of his game in a vacuum. Just that he is always bound to get injured and the 15 million could be better utilized elsewhere.

If people want to debate those points, feel free. But don't create straw men that are easier to defeat. It gets really old.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Without Gordon, who is obviously and ridiculously under appreciated around here, Either Holiday or Evans needs to step up to an all star level. They have to be counted on to make plays at crucial times and they just aren't doing it. They instead become bone headed and miss easy shots or turn the ball over. Even when Gordon was in a shooting slump he did other things this team sorely needed. Last time they played Sac, be drove for a layup, hit a mid range J, then a 3 all at crucial times in the 4th quarter.

The other back court starters need to pick up the slack. Maybe last night was a wake up call that they have to step it up.

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Granted it was only one game, but I agree if this trend continues it will show how much Gordon really means to the team. Everyone here wants playoffs and unfortunately it looks like Gordon might be pretty essential to us making the playoffs. Without Gordon to hate on the hate microscope is going to be on a lot of other players. Prepare yourselves.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Without Gordon, who is obviously and ridiculously under appreciated around here, Either Holiday or Evans needs to step up to an all star level. They have to be counted on to make plays at crucial times and they just aren't doing it. They instead become bone headed and miss easy shots or turn the ball over. Even when Gordon was in a shooting slump he did other things this team sorely needed. Last time they played Sac, be drove for a layup, hit a mid range J, then a 3 all at crucial times in the 4th quarter.

The other back court starters need to pick up the slack. Maybe last night was a wake up call that they have to step it up.

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Great post. Gordon is definitely underappreciated. He was one of the better players with making sure AD got the ball, amongst other things. He seems to be the best and most comfortable at making the pocket pass to AD in the pick and roll and always seemed able to find him for dumpoffs under the rim.

I'd also say that he is the most decisive player offensively of the guard trio, especially in catch and shoot situations. Unless Reke and Holiday are wide the hell open, they all seem to have that 'think about it' moment before they make a move.

This is not a they suck, trade them post but just some observations from the season. I like both Reke and Jrue and here's hoping that they'll find their niche with each other and AD. They already barely had time to play with each other last season and now they have to readjust again with Gordon out.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I am so confused. How is Gordon under appreciated? The consensus seems to be that he is:

1. Injury prone
2. Overpaid for what we need (that 15 mil would be utilized better elsewhere)

Aren't those arguments stronger than ever?

There are maybe one or two people who bring up the 'Heart in Phoenix' stuff or that say he is so bad that we are better with Darius Miller or Jimmer.

The rational people all say what I listed above. No personal vendetta. No bashing of his game in a vacuum. Just that he is always bound to get injured and the 15 million could be better utilized elsewhere.

If people want to debate those points, feel free. But don't create straw men that are easier to defeat. It gets really old.

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I think he was under appreciated in terms of his contributions on the floor compared to how many on here perceived his contributions on the floor this season. I think that was what the poster was meaning in context. Ignoring the opportunity costs of Gordon's contract and just focusing on his play this season he is under appreciated by a lot on this board. Was he great? No. But he played unselfishly and did a lot of little things that go unnoticed a lot and was willing to step back and take the role of 4th offensive option(5th if you include Ryno).

With that said, Gordon's contract is our single worst asset right now. I hate even thinking about it because all the things we are complaining about - SF, incomplete bench and bench depth could of been fixed with that money. It makes me shudder to think we could of gotten Ariza back(probably had to overpay a bit compared to Houston but given how he is playing that would still be a good deal) and still had 5 million or so to spend on bench depth.

What is going on with this board? We lose one game and the sky is falling?

We missed a TON of shots. Guys looked tired out there. AD admitted he's sick. Its one game in a looooonnngg season.
Yea Gordon going down sucks but now we're doomed because of it?

I didn't put last nights loss on the lack of GorDON at all. Just looked like we played FLAT out the gate to me. Never got any kinda motor going. If GorDON plays we win? (seriously doubt it) It's ok to admit AD played a bad game guys.

Perhaps the saints poopoo losses plus a Pelicans loss the following day makes people look for things to blame?

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...plZpo1_500.gif

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I am so confused. How is Gordon under appreciated? The consensus seems to be that he is:

1. Injury prone
2. Overpaid for what we need (that 15 mil would be utilized better elsewhere)

Aren't those arguments stronger than ever?

There are maybe one or two people who bring up the 'Heart in Phoenix' stuff or that say he is so bad that we are better with Darius Miller or Jimmer.

The rational people all say what I listed above. No personal vendetta. No bashing of his game in a vacuum. Just that he is always bound to get injured and the 15 million could be better utilized elsewhere.

If people want to debate those points, feel free. But don't create straw men that are easier to defeat. It gets really old.

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Consensus? I like to quote a recent tweeter:

"Obviously so many people here are smarter than Dell..... Why not get applications in. What's holding you back?"

Guess you are smarter than Dell, and hope you apply for Monty's job with your successful coaching experience?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I am so confused. How is Gordon under appreciated?

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Personally I'm not referring to the heart in Phoenix, injury proneness, or contract, just what he brings on the court. I would say on here and elsewhere there are fans that don't recognize his improved hustle, selflessness, and other elements to his game this year. Perhaps to say severely or very underappreciated as I did also may be an overstatement since it may be more of a vocal minority, but that contingent is definitely out there.

Under one of Zach Lowe (or one of the other NBA bloggers) twitter posts about EGs injury a couple of Pels fan buddies actually cosigned each other along the lines of "Yes! Pels are gonna be much better now just watch!" Just one example but I was stupified at that exchange.

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Originally Posted by WhoDatPelican

What is going on with this board? We lose one game and the sky is falling?

We missed a TON of shots. Guys looked tired out there. AD admitted he's sick. Its one game in a looooonnngg season.
Yea Gordon going down sucks but now we're doomed because of it?

I didn't put last nights loss on the lack of GorDON at all. Just looked like we played FLAT out the gate to me. Never got any kinda motor going. If GorDON plays we win? (seriously doubt it) It's ok to admit AD played a bad game guys.

Perhaps the saints poopoo losses plus a Pelicans loss the following day makes people look for things to blame?

[IMG]ges/newsfeed/000/003/866/nfNeT7YvTozx0cv7ze3mplZpo1_500.gif[/IMG]

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"If gordon plays we win" is a dishonest simplification of the arguments people are making. The point is that Gordon's abscence makes are already top heavy team now have to force average to below average players with critical flaws into the starting lineup.

As for Gordon, he may have been the difference we needed. And this post speaks to how under appreciated his floor precense is to this team. Since his slump got over starting with the the Minny game he has averaged 13 points on 57% shooting from the field and 59% from Three. Compare that to Miller last night who scored nothing. gordon just hitting his average and we win that game. Heck Gordon just hitting his low since the Minny game and we win last night. Gordon is also a superior decision maker and off ball player then any of our other guards outside of Jrue. His presence also keeps defender honest because while he may not be what he was in LA he is still more versatile then any of the guys replacing him.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

"If gordon plays we win" is a dishonest simplification of the arguments people are making. The point is that Gordon's abscence makes are already top heavy team now have to force average to below average players with critical flaws into the starting lineup.

As for Gordon, he may have been the difference we needed. And this post speaks to how under appreciated his floor precense is to this team. Since his slump got over starting with the the Minny game he has averaged 13 points on 57% shooting from the field and 59% from Three. Compare that to Miller last night who scored nothing. gordon just hitting his average and we win that game. Heck Gordon just hitting his low since the Minny game and we win last night. Gordon is also a superior decision maker and off ball player then any of our other guards outside of Jrue. His presence also keeps defender honest because while he may not be what he was in LA he is still more versatile then any of the guys replacing him.

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How is it a dishonest simplification? We have a differing opinion on what the outcome of the game may have looked like with GorDON.
I don't under-appreciate him i just think our "big three" of Jrue, AD, Reke played badly last night (not to mention Asik wasnt playing well). Having GorDON wouldnt have changed that imo.

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Originally Posted by WhoDatPelican

How is it a dishonest simplification? We have a differing opinion on what the outcome of the game may have looked like with GorDON.
I don't under-appreciate him i just think our "big three" of Jrue, AD, Reke played badly last night (not to mention Asik wasnt playing well). Having GorDON wouldnt have changed that imo.

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I explained why it is a dishonest simplification. Not sure what else needs to be said. Gordon's abscense has a tangible effect on our ability to run our offense as effectively and efficiently.

And again. Gordon averages 13 points since Minny, the guy replacing him averaged 0, we lost by 10. You do the math.

Gordon may not have saved the defeat but your inference that his precense basically has no effect one way or another on our teams outcome or the performance of others is just not true. I already explained to you why.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

I explained why it is a dishonest simplification. Not sure what else needs to be said. Gordon's abscense has a tangible effect on our ability to run our offense as effectively and efficiently.

And again. Gordon averages 13 points since Minny, the guy replacing him averaged 0, we lost by 9. You do the math.

Gordon may not have saved the defeat but your inference that his precense basically has no effect one way or another on our teams outcome or the performance of others is just not true. I already explained to you why.

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Dishonest simplification yet you just basically stated if Gordon plays we win. lol

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Heck Gordon just hitting his low since the Minny game and we win last night.

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Never once did i state his presence basically has no effect.
My statement is more directed at how poorly everyone else played.

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Originally Posted by WhoDatPelican

Dishonest simplification yet you just basically stated if Gordon plays we win. lol
Never once did i state his presence basically has no effect.
My statement is more directed at how poorly everyone else played.

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Re-read my post a third time then. You are oversimplifying the arguments made in this thread. I am saying personally that I do think that having Gordon last night would of been enough to get us over the hump. That doesn't discount that you were oversimplifying the OP and others argument.

We were playing 4 on 5 last night and every attempt to fill the hole of Gordon's abscence was a failure(or more accurately the hole at 3 that existed because evans was asked to slide over in Gordon's abscence). Miller did nothing on either end, Babbitt couldn't hit and was abysmal defensively. Rivers was off and played error prone basketball on both sides, visibly frustrating Ryno and Davis at times.

Gordon does a lot of things better then any other guard on this Team that no one gives him credit for. He plays within the offense, is a smart decision maker and plays very well off the ball. And recently he has been out most efficient guard.

When it comes down to it a guy that is playing like Gordon was playing compared to his replacements, yes, I personally think his precense could of gotten us over the hump.

I agree with everything you're saying except for the fact Gordon playing changes the outcome. (not that we'll ever know so it's kinda stupid to argue anyway)
I'll say had AD and Asik played better we win the game, with or without Gordon.

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Originally Posted by MMEmbreno

That team didn't have collison or gay and we still lost.

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They had Collison/Gay last week and we beat them at their house.

I'm as mad as everyone else about the loss.
Our guys didn't come to play. That combined with Brow being sick and Omer coming back from missing some games with back issues didn't help. We couldn't make any shots, got frustrated and in turn lost any intensity in defending.

BUT!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNe7x13q2MU

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Originally Posted by Caffeinedisastr

They had Collison/Gay last week and we beat them at their house.

We couldn't make any shots, got frustrated and in turn lost any intensity in defending.

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^^this
Guys looked like they had no legs out there. Jumpers were very flat. I'm not expecting it to continue, just one of those nights imo.

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Originally Posted by MMEmbreno

might as well cheer for the tank.

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I'm going to go ahead and dismiss this as hyperbole because I know you cannot be serious. :shakehd:

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Originally Posted by djpaul89

Personally I'm not referring to the heart in Phoenix, injury proneness, or contract, just what he brings on the court. I would say on here and elsewhere there are fans that don't recognize his improved hustle, selflessness, and other elements to his game this year. Perhaps to say severely or very underappreciated as I did also may be an overstatement since it may be more of a vocal minority, but that contingent is definitely out there.

Under one of Zach Lowe (or one of the other NBA bloggers) twitter posts about EGs injury a couple of Pels fan buddies actually cosigned each other along the lines of "Yes! Pels are gonna be much better now just watch!" Just one example but I was stupified at that exchange.

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The contingent is out there. There is a contingent that thinks lava is made of cheese too. But my belief is we should ALL ignore that very, very, very small contingent. Its unfair to the people who have valid issues with Gordon being on the roster to get lumped in with the extremists.

Not one logical person said, "Oh Gordon is gone, now we will take off!!" Not one. 99.9% of us are on the same page here - the team is better with Gordon on it than on the IR. He is better off the books than on, but that's not possible for a while.

Yet there still seems to be pointed shots at people about not appreciating Gordon. Why? We are all in agreement pretty much.

The intention of this thread wasn't to highlight Eric's contribution to the team as a player. It was to emphasize what Eric's presence on the team was preventing: that is, playing our atrocious bench players for extended minutes. Without Eric, we need a respectable amount of contribution from players who aren't cut out to function as everyday contributors.

It was preventing our crappy bench from getting minutes that's what it was preventing. Makes me wonder if two pieces that are both slightly worse then say Ryno are better then one Ryno. Two bodies to be used in a multitude of ways double the chance of someone going off that night...We need a bench.

I thought Dell should've brought in a veteran PG to run the second unit....Rivers is not a PG. I think Dell should think outside the box and bring a guy in with little bit of an edge, but not a cancer.......Will Bynum IMO could help us......

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Originally Posted by SaintPelican225

I thought Dell should've brought in a veteran PG to run the second unit....Rivers is not a PG. I think Dell should think outside the box and bring a guy with little bit of an edge, but not a cancer.......Will Bynum IMO could help us......

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They went after Jameer Nelson, had to settle for Jimmer.