Report: Tom Thibodeau’s relationship with Bulls management ‘beyond repair'

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Originally Posted by MonsterMash

I said "I can't" say that for sure, but the star guys who have been with him through this run have been breaking down and it's worth considering It may or may not have anything to do with overuse. But I can say most of the more successful teams take a more measured approach in distributing minutes. I think Thibs is a bit reckless.

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I misread, my bad brother


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Originally Posted by Ogden Park

The overwhelming Thibodeau love has always been peculiar to me. Not saying he isn't a very solid coach, because clearly his defensive principals are a staple of the league now, but a top 3 overall coach? Lol, cmon. The evidence just is not there.

Thibodeau has had a top 5 roster in just about every season he has coached. Rose's health has handicapped them, but even without him they have had one of the most balanced rosters of talent in the league year in and year out. This year they have an embarrassment of talent frankly. And what does he really have to show for it? One really good year, and a bunch of mostly disappointing endings.

Now you throw in him losing his locker room. to go with the longstanding criticisms of him riding his players too hard and having a poor offensive system and its just hard to justify the blind love for him. Is he an upgrade over Monty? Absolutely (though I'm really not sure how much), for a season or two. But I really do not like his style long term, especially with a young franchise player on board.


There is plenty to criticize Monty for, but his handling of AD has been terrific. And I really believe that is the most important thing to this franchise right now and moving forward. I honestly don't want Thibodeau controlling his practicing, minutes and playing time for the next 3-4 years.

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How in God's name can you say the Bulls have a stacked roster his whole time there? This is such an absurd post. Tibs' first year, 2010-11, Noah went out in December 2010 with a torn ligament in his hand, out 8-10 weeks. Month and a half into Tibs' first season as coach. Clearly not bc of being overworked. Tibs also doesn't get credit from you for developing Noah as well as Gibson, among others? Noah was considered bust-worthy his first couple years in the league. Back to riding his players, Noah played 32mpg and 30mpg in 2010-11 season and 2011-12, respectively. Pretty standard for bigs yet he missed 34 games in 10-11...riding his players or injury prone? STATS. Look at them.

Whaddya know? Luol Deng's healthiest season in his career was Tibs' first year as coach. His starting SG in 10-11 was frickin Ronnie Brewer or Keith Bogans. SF was Deng and pre-unbelievably god-like 3-point shooting version of Korver (don't get me wrong, he was a really good 3-shooter then but only averaged 8 ppg). He coached his team to great defensive capabilities with Carlos Boozer on the court, one of the worst big man defenders I've ever seen. ANOTHER player who had a history WELL before going to the bulls of being injury prone. Boozer has 5 entire seasons where he averaged more minutes per game then any season with the bulls. Tibs has done a great job with a bunch of role players. Some very good role players, yes.

Does he also not get credit for basically turning Jimmy Butler into a budding star? He was the 30th pick and averaged 2.6 ppg in 11-12, his rookie year. How a coach can hold it together with a backcourt of Kirk Hinrich, Nate Robinson and Belinelli in 2012-13 is beyond me. Tibs also had to deal with injuries to Rip Hamilton who got injured due to being old. He actually averaged his lowest MPG since his rookie season with the bulls.

BOTTOM LINE is Tibs has dealt with a multitude of injuries, serious ones, and still won ball games and made the playoffs. He won a playoff series in 2012-13 for crying out loud. When you lose your central superstar player and you still maintain a solid level of success, you're a really good coach. Not one player could be considered injured BECAUSE of Tibs. Rose plays with reckless abandon, same as Westbrook. That's their nature. MPG of like 38-39 in your rookie and sophomore years ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT directly result in multiple career-threatening injuries. At all. The majority of his roster has been injury prone before he ever got there. Deng, Noah, Rip Hamilton, Boozer, and on and on. Taj Gibson missed 17 games in 12-13...while averaging 22.4 MPG.

If you want to blame Rose's injuries on anything, blame it on the fact that his diet was eating 5 lbs of candy in one sitting, like every day. He admits this. That would be more to blame than his minutes, as a 20-21 year old.

*insert dropping knowledge gif**

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Originally Posted by kdalw1

I cant believe Chicago would just let hime go though. He is the 3rd best coach in the league after pops and Carlisle.

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Because he's all hype and has never won anything. If the object was to rack up wins in the regular season, he's definitely the guy

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Originally Posted by Ogden Park

The overwhelming Thibodeau love has always been peculiar to me. Not saying he isn't a very solid coach, because clearly his defensive principals are a staple of the league now, but a top 3 overall coach? Lol, cmon. The evidence just is not there.

Thibodeau has had a top 5 roster in just about every season he has coached. Rose's health has handicapped them, but even without him they have had one of the most balanced rosters of talent in the league year in and year out. This year they have an embarrassment of talent frankly. And what does he really have to show for it? One really good year, and a bunch of mostly disappointing endings.

Now you throw in him losing his locker room. to go with the longstanding criticisms of him riding his players too hard and having a poor offensive system and its just hard to justify the blind love for him. Is he an upgrade over Monty? Absolutely (though I'm really not sure how much), for a season or two. But I really do not like his style long term, especially with a young franchise player on board.


There is plenty to criticize Monty for, but his handling of AD has been terrific. And I really believe that is the most important thing to this franchise right now and moving forward. I honestly don't want Thibodeau controlling his practicing, minutes and playing time for the next 3-4 years.

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amen

I could argue that the Pels roster post-getting Jrue and Tyreke is more talented than the Bulls rosters were without Rose.

I could argue that Monty has dealt with more health issues and less talent than Thibs. If that is an excuse for underachieving for Thibs, why isn't it one for Monty?

But them underachieving in your eyes is making the playoffs every year and actually being able to win a series without rose, which they've done

The Pels at full strength are a .500 team

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Originally Posted by ThaTerrapin

How in God's name can you say the Bulls have a stacked roster his whole time there? This is such an absurd post. Tibs' first year, 2010-11, Noah went out in December 2010 with a torn ligament in his hand, out 8-10 weeks. Month and a half into Tibs' first season as coach. Clearly not bc of being overworked. Tibs also doesn't get credit from you for developing Noah as well as Gibson, among others? Noah was considered bust-worthy his first couple years in the league. Back to riding his players, Noah played 32mpg and 30mpg in 2010-11 season and 2011-12, respectively. Pretty standard for bigs yet he missed 34 games in 10-11...riding his players or injury prone? STATS. Look at them.

Whaddya know? Luol Deng's healthiest season in his career was Tibs' first year as coach. His starting SG in 10-11 was frickin Ronnie Brewer or Keith Bogans. SF was Deng and pre-unbelievably god-like 3-point shooting version of Korver (don't get me wrong, he was a really good 3-shooter then but only averaged 8 ppg). He coached his team to great defensive capabilities with Carlos Boozer on the court, one of the worst big man defenders I've ever seen. ANOTHER player who had a history WELL before going to the bulls of being injury prone. Boozer has 5 entire seasons where he averaged more minutes per game then any season with the bulls. Tibs has done a great job with a bunch of role players. Some very good role players, yes.

Does he also not get credit for basically turning Jimmy Butler into a budding star? He was the 30th pick and averaged 2.6 ppg in 11-12, his rookie year. How a coach can hold it together with a backcourt of Kirk Hinrich, Nate Robinson and Belinelli in 2012-13 is beyond me. Tibs also had to deal with injuries to Rip Hamilton who got injured due to being old. He actually averaged his lowest MPG since his rookie season with the bulls.

BOTTOM LINE is Tibs has dealt with a multitude of injuries, serious ones, and still won ball games and made the playoffs. He won a playoff series in 2012-13 for crying out loud. When you lose your central superstar player and you still maintain a solid level of success, you're a really good coach. Not one player could be considered injured BECAUSE of Tibs. Rose plays with reckless abandon, same as Westbrook. That's their nature. MPG of like 38-39 in your rookie and sophomore years ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT directly result in multiple career-threatening injuries. At all. The majority of his roster has been injury prone before he ever got there. Deng, Noah, Rip Hamilton, Boozer, and on and on. Taj Gibson missed 17 games in 12-13...while averaging 22.4 MPG.

If you want to blame Rose's injuries on anything, blame it on the fact that his diet was eating 5 lbs of candy in one sitting, like every day. He admits this. That would be more to blame than his minutes, as a 20-21 year old.

*insert dropping knowledge gif**

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Well you cherry picked and misrepresented my post so badly to make your points, so I'm not going to engage with your ramblings specifically. Player development is much too nuanced and subjective to attribute only to the player's head coach (you are basically saying Monty is the GOAT due to AD's unprecedented ascension).

"Not one player could be considered injured BECAUSE of Tibs."

Lol, ok bud. Keep telling yourself that.

I gave Thibs plenty of credit, acknowledged he's a good coach and a top defensive mind (if not THE top). Sorry I do not find his resume as sparkling as you do, but I just don't believe his coaching style is conducive to the grueling 82 game + Playoffs NBA schedule of millionaire athletes playing a game. This isn't State College playing 35 games trying to grind out an NCAA tourney birth. Winning an NBA title is possibly the most grueling and taxing schedule in ALL of sports.

I would take him ANY DAY as our defensive assistant, but the main point is I do not want him controlling player's minutes and practice times. Popovich, who is unquestionably the top coach of a generation, takes a completely different approach to handling this. I'll ride with that guy over the Drill Sergeant. And Thibs' in-game coaching has been criticized for years, so let's not act like he's some clipboard genius out there either. He's a scratchy throat screamer with terrific defensive principals and questionable offensive schemes that has done an adequate job based on the talent he's had. Proof is in the pudding.

what could you actually claim, with stats, is a direct result from his coaching to injury? You're also gloriously glossing over the points you can't disprove. Like Boozer, Noah, Rip, Gibson, Deng being injured before he got there or the moment he arrived. How does playing a 20 year old 37 minutes per game too much? You can't just say "lol ok bud" and move on. That's the main point here. That he's almost never had a fully healthy roster yet sustained a solid level of success. 30 mpg is too much for Noah? 22 mpg was too much for Gibson? Every superstar player in his first few seasons plays 37 mpg. Why is it criticized differently with rose? Rose plays with reckless abandon and that takes a toll. See Westbrook. Noah has been nicked up his whole career.

While Monty, who has a healthy superstar (minus minor groin injury) having the best PER season in nba history and they're basically a .500 team that plays WAY WAY too much disjointed one on one hero ball. That's why they lose to teams like the Knicks and Sixers.

I am with ThaTerrapin on all accounts. Thibs hasn't had the healthiest of rosters to work with, but he still makes things happen when he loses a key player for a year and a half. Sure he coaches in the East, but his best player without Rose was who? Noah? Deng? A combination of the two? The guy got it done with less talent. If we are going to give the coaches praise for developing players, this guy has developed Gibson and Butler. Both of whom were end of round 1 picks (where the talent is typicaly dried up).

^ Amen. You can't compare developing Anthony Davis (widely regarded as the next big thing pre-draft) to developing Butler and Gibson and to a slightly lesser extent Noah. They ran offenses through Noah for a long time because they simply had to. This year they don't have to because Pau is better at distributing and scoring (he's just a better player). AD plays same number of minutes as Rose now. AD played only 28 mpg his first year and missed 17 games. Monty clearly rides him too hard in practices according to the above logic.

I don't know how you can attribut a players injuries to a coach. This isn't horse racing. Thibs isnt hitting his players in their shins with a stick when they jump. He plays his players for longer periods than other coaches do? Can we get a fact check on that? As pointed out by ThaTarrpin, key players aren't playing any more than ours are, so where do these assertions come from? From the Jimmh Butler game? Yeah, that killed that guy, and all he got from it was more experience, and now he is an All Star. Poor him. I would love for a coach who pushes bench guys to be more than bench guys. Maybe one day we will know what that's like.

Still waiting on any factual data driven evidence that Thibs' is a top 3 coach. All I see is the typical message board bluster giving his guy all the credit for the good things, and zero criticism for his lack of real success and obvious deficiencies as a head coach.

Word of advice, if you want to actually engage in productive discussions on sports it helps to bring a more balanced approach. Try to be more objective about your heroes if you want to be credible. Never seen anyone talk this long about Tom Thibodeau while dodging the legit criticisms. Even die hard Bulls fans will gladly acknowledge his shortcomings, probably have a better discussion about him on a Bulls board.

But have fun hammering your keyboard hyping a guy that's lost his (veteran) locker room and has never won anything except a screaming contest.

I'd hope that you'd have a better discussion about the bulls head coach on the bulls forum. Excellent point...you've also not given any data as to what 3 coaches are better than him. Obviously Pop is #1. It's so ironic to claim that you want productive discussions yet 80% of your replies are just whining about having a productive discussion, thus making your current discussion unproductive...also I have no affinity for Tibs. I just think it's absurd that there are rumblings that he's getting canned. Same as it was absurd for that to exist with Harbaugh. Also, your claim of requiring data...well I've provided data and you've provided elitist scoffing at my usage of data and still haven't provided any. It's also baseless to, in passing, claim that he's lost the locker room even though rose today said that it was absurd to think he's on the hot seat or getting any criticism.

He does have the 3rd highest winning percentage (.657) among active NBA coaches (trailing Pops .686, and Spolstra .660). So he might well be a top 3 NBA regular season coach. Monty is holding it down at .414.

He does have faults, and for that I would hope he has competent assistants around him (most good coaches do), but given the issues he has dealt with, I think his faults aren't as big as people think. He hasn't missed the playoffs (despite the injuries), and has made it out of the first round twice (with one trip to the ECF's), with the two first round exits happening while down Rose, or other key contributors.

There are at least 3 coaches currently that have won championships so it is factual to say that they are better than Thibs. Off of my head, there's Pop, Doc, Spoelstra, and Carlisle. There's a guy that's not coaching that wants to get back into coaching that you can argue has had = or more success than Thibs in Carl. Stan Van Gundy has coached in a finals. I can argue based on success that all of the above are better coaches than Thibs or we can continue to make excuses about how depleted his rosters have been. I don't think Thibs is awful. I just don't think he is deserving of this undying love. People prefer him over coaches that have actually gotten to the big game (ie Avery Johnson). I don't get it.

People that aren't currently coaching obviously don't count and you can toss Spoelstra off the list for obvious reasons. And if you're gonna stretch beyond the boundaries of a discussion and include Karl, at least spell his name correctly. And Stan Van Gundy? Come on. Solid coach but come on. Doc is probably a better coach but my God has he had some stacked teams. I actually consider him to be pretty underwhelming so far for the clippers. They're not true contenders I don't think.

You really think Avery Johnson is better than Tibs?...wait...really? I'm done here. You're completely disregarding ALL the stats I posted that show he plays his players no more than anyone else does and the Avery Johnson sentence. Just...no...

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Originally Posted by ThaTerrapin

People that aren't currently coaching obviously don't count and you can toss Spoelstra off the list for obvious reasons. And if you're gonna stretch beyond the boundaries of a discussion and include Karl, at least spell his name correctly. And Stan Van Gundy? Come on. Solid coach but come on. Doc is probably a better coach but my God has he had some stacked teams. I actually consider him to be pretty underwhelming so far for the clippers. They're not true contenders I don't think.

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Yet more excuses. Everyone is underwhelming and underachieving except for Thibs huh? Sure thing pal. Thibs get a pass. Gotcha. You be satisfied with a "top tier" coach who can't even get out of the East and bring him to the West and he'll be a sure shot. Cool story bro

I would say Rick Carlisle is better to than Thibs. I wonder if the Pacers ever stay awake at night regretting the decision to fire him.

HIS BEST PLAYER HAS BEEN INJURED FOR 2 YEARS WHO THEY BUILT AROUND. Injuries matter. I swear to God new orleans has to have the least knowledgeable nba fanbase. This is why I don't post here. Your coach gets a pass if he makes the playoffs and wins a series without the superstar player who the team is built to play off of. That's how that works.

Carlisle is a better coach. Will not dispute that. I love Carlisle. I love how he morphs his style of coaching to fit his personnel. But Spoelstra is easily debatable as well as Avery friggin Johnson. Doc is a really good coach too. Even still, if he's ranked 4th in the league instead of 3rd, does that make him worthy of getting fired? Absolutely not.

If we are not going to give Tibs a pass based on the injury to Rose, there should be a mob calling for Monty to be fired yesterday.