NBA finalizing flopping procedures/Fine system has been announced

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ELIZABETH, N.J. -- The NBA is about to act in hopes of stopping the floppers.

Spokesman Tim Frank said Thursday the league is finalizing procedures to deal with flopping, the art of falling down when little or no contact was made in an effort to trick referees into calling a foul.

Frank said the competition committee met two weeks ago and discussed plans that would go in place this season. Commissioner David Stern believes too many players are deceiving referees by flopping and has been seeking a way to properly penalize them.

The procedures will likely involve a postgame review of the play by the league office, rather than an official calling an infraction during the game, Frank said. Players would likely be fined if the league determined they flopped.

The proposed plan mirrors a "postgame analysis" option Stern discussed after the competition committee met in June. The league already retroactively reviews flagrant fouls to determine if they need to be upgraded or downgraded.

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http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/84...ayers-flopping

BG and CP wallets about to lighten.

Their wallets may lighten but flopping will still cost teams games. If the officials decide to call a foul on a flopping play sending said flopper to the free throw line, that could decide a game. I'll be happy they got fined for it because they may decide to stop doing it once their wallets are hit a few times but it won't help my team any once they've already lost the game.

Hey, I created a thread called stop the flop. I wish the flopping penalties were more severe, which is my argument. I think they should get suspended after 3 flops due to diminishing the integrity of the game.

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

Hey, I created a thread called stop the flop. I wish the flopping penalties were more severe, which is my argument. I think they should get suspended after 3 flops due to diminishing the integrity of the game.

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They're still deciding the punishment so who knows how severe they will actually be. Actually I think suspensions as you've suggested may stop the flop more than fines will.

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Originally Posted by HunnyB

They're still deciding the punishment so who knows how severe they will actually be. Actually I think suspensions as you've suggested may stop the flop more than fines will.

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Yeah, and mainly for the playoffs. Let it carry over like techs and if you've got two to start the playoffs well you'd better be careful. Maybe 5 but regardless.

My stance has always been the refs should call what they see not what they presume. If they did that floppers wouldn't be rewarded.

It is about time they did something. Some of those plays are too judgmental to be called right then and there on the floor. It is nice that the NBA will have all angle to review these.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

My stance has always been the refs should call what they see not what they presume. If they did that floppers wouldn't be rewarded.

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That's the difficult part. The good floppers know how to position themselves in order to deceive the refs. They know where the refs are and what they can see.

I won't believe anything about flop punishment until I actually see it called in a game.

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Yeah, unless they're being fined an entire paycheck, flopping is going to continue. I can't really see a way for the floppers to be called for it in game, like Kibner said. It's hard for the ref to see everything in full motion.

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Originally Posted by Kibner

That's the difficult part. The good floppers know how to position themselves in order to deceive the refs. They know where the refs are and what they can see.

I won't believe anything about flop punishment until I actually see it called in a game.

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If your a good flopper so be it, but the majority of the flopping we see is pretty obvious and it's obvious live. It happens because the refs officiate to often on assumption. The league should be looking to add another ref to help cover more of the court.

I applaud this. It will protect integrity of game a tad. I imagine they will treat them in the same manner as technical fouls. Once you accumulate so many a suspension will be given.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

If your a good flopper so be it, but the majority of the flopping we see is pretty obvious and it's obvious live. It happens because the refs officiate to often on assumption. The league should be looking to add another ref to help cover more of the court.

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I agree about adding an extra official. But just keep in mind that what is obvious from many angles is not obvious from all. Game moves real fast and refs have to watch many things. They have room for improvement, certainly, but probably not as much as you think.

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Some will like the league's answer to flopping, and others will say it's not enough. And while I recognize the benefit of taking it out of the referees' hands, the new approach -- if adopted -- could open up a whole new can of worms in a sports environment that clearly does not tolerate officiating incompetence. Suppose LeBron James drives to the basket on the final possession of a playoff game, with the Miami Heat trailing by a point. He misses the shot, but dupes the official into calling a shooting foul by flopping. James sinks both free throws, the Heat win the game and advance to the next round. But what happens when the league fines James $25,000 the next morning for flopping on the play? What the league would be saying, essentially, is that James shouldn't have been awarded free throws and the Heat shouldn't have won. Chaos, would ensue, as it often does with these controversies -- be it a disputed Hail Mary in the end zone or a superstar call late in an NBA game.

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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/2...further-review

This almost sounds like the argument I'm trying to make. A post game fine won't help us after our team has lost a game due to a flop sending a player to the free throw line. I'd really like to see how they're going to do this.

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Originally Posted by Kibner

I agree about adding an extra official. But just keep in mind that what is obvious from many angles is not obvious from all. Game moves real fast and refs have to watch many things. They have room for improvement, certainly, but probably not as much as you think.

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I'm fine with a little flopping. However I cannot believe every flop called is the result of the refs eyes being fooled like these guys are some great magicians. Clearly most times it them assuming because of a guys body language there must have been a foul and calls a foul instead of only calling with they've seen and know for sure. I can live with there being less calls. Honestly I think the game would benefit without a lot of the unnecessary stoppage.

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Referees actually stopped play to review this Greivis Vasquez flagrant foul on Reggie Evans last year. In real time they called a Flagrant 2 on Vasquez, which is about as serious as these things get. Vasquez would have been ejected, fined, yelled at by fans, tut-tutted by the media and maybe even victimized by a snarky David Stern comment or two.

But on review, Vasquez did something that wouldn't have even stopped play in practice. Yes, he made contact with his elbow, but in professional sports that's a love tap -- and nothing compared to the legal but hard contact that Evans laid on Vasquez to start the interaction.

What was egregious, however, was Evans' hilarious reaction: After taking an instant to gather himself, he wound up and threw his body backward, as if attempting a gymnastics move I'm pretty sure is called back walkover.

How dreadful it must have been to have been one of those three referees huddling around the replay monitor. They knew they were had. They knew everyone at home, and in the audience knew the exact same thing. Oh, for shame. That is the moment when referees have the toughest, most embarrassing job in the world -- pride melting into a stinky puddle, like crayons on simmer -- before a global TV audience.

Shame shift: From Vasquez, to the officials.

But don't forget this key point! The shame lived rightly with Evans. And even once what really happened was clear Evans still got free throws for his team.

Chalk it up to veteran trickery, gamesmanship, or anything else. Well played, Reggie.

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http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...-with-flopping

I know most of us remember that Vasquez/Evans deal.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

I'm fine with a little flopping. However I cannot believe every flop called is the result of refs eyes where fooled like these guys are some great magicians. Clearly most times it them assuming because a guys body language there must have been a foul and calls a foul instead of only calling with they've seen and know for sure. I can live with there being less calls. Honestly I think the game would benefit without a lot of the unnecessary stoppage.

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These guys yelling bloody murder every time they shoot cheapens the game enough. Then you have all the CP3 BG, and some Lebron flops that were outrageous last year.I'm cool with guys falling down a little early on a charge; but some of it just makes me want to turn the game off and one of the biggest complaints I ALWAYS here from people who dislike the NBA. It's driving people away.

NBA refs already have far too much impact in a game. I think flopping says more about the rules than the ones who flop.

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

These guys yelling bloody murder every time they shoot cheapens the game enough. Then you have all the CP3 BG, and some Lebron flops that were outrageous last year.I'm cool with guys falling down a little early on a charge; but some of it just makes me want to turn the game off and one of the biggest complaints I ALWAYS here from people who dislike the NBA. It's driving people away.

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I guarantee if the refs only call for sure fouls these guys would stop behaving like they are made of feathers.

Stoppages on this beautiful game kill me, so i'm all for fewer calls. I just think the refs have too much to look out for and that I'd what causes them to mis-call the obvious flops; they were too busy looking for one of the other hundred possible violations that could happen at that moment. So they use intuition and other things they picked up through the years that enables them to usually make the correct call.

They have the hardest reffing job in sports, but still need to get better. The league could help them out by adding an additional ref out simplifying some of the rules. There may be other ways that haven't thought of that could help the refs to ensure the game remains fun to watch while enforcing fair play.

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Originally Posted by Kibner

Stoppages on this beautiful game kill me, so i'm all for fewer calls. I just think the refs have too much to look out for and that I'd what causes them to mis-call the obvious flops; they were too busy looking for one of the other hundred possible violations that could happen at that moment. So they use intuition and other things they picked up through the years that enables them to usually make the correct call.

They have the hardest reffing job in sports, but still need to get better. The league could help them out by adding an additional ref out simplifying some of the rules. There may be other ways that haven't thought of that could help the refs to ensure the game remains fun to watch while enforcing fair play.

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I agree but I like the idea of the league reviewing things on the back end after games and just handing out suspensions after said number of violations.

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On Heat Index, Tom Haberstroh digs into the NBA's new, as-yet unclear anti-flopping policy.

Erik Spoelstra and LeBron James are all for it, hoping it will cut down on, essentially, players taking slight contact from James and then hurtling to the floor as if shot.

But Heat forward Shane Battier is not on board. Battier has done his fair share of flopping -- he's aggressive and at times inventive in taking the charge. To some, hearing Battier opposes the new rule is a sign it's a good one.

Read what he has to say, though, and it's a tale of a culture of flopping that runs deeper than we had suspected -- all the way to the referees. Battier says, emphatically, that referees tell players to flop. I'm not kidding!

Here's Battier:
"The unfortunate thing about the block/charge (distinction) is that I’ve had many, many times where a ref told me that you have to go to the floor to get the call. By the letter of the law, I’ve taken a hit, but I’ve stood on my feet. Even though I’ve gotten nailed, the ref calls it a no-call. I say, ‘Ref, what’s wrong with that (charge)?’ He says, ‘You have to go down to get the call.’

"Inherently, there’s something wrong with that.”

Yes, yes there is.

Now, you might wonder why a referee would do something like that. Here's my best guess: Credibility matters a lot in their jobs. They need to be seen as making good calls. Call a charge on a guy who knocked somebody down, and you're seen as sensible. Call a charge after some contact on a drive which didn't send a body flying, and we all know what happens next: commentators, fans, everybody is screaming to "let them play."

Make a lot of calls that look funny on television, and it quickly becomes very tough to earn a reputation as a great referee.

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http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...f-made-me-flop

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Originally Posted by HunnyB

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...f-made-me-flop

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This has been my point. The refs aren't doing their jobs. They are too busy worried about how things "look" and not what really happened.

The league makes a statement refuting this claim in 5, 4, 3, ......

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Originally Posted by HunnyB

The league makes a statement refuting this claim in 5, 4, 3, ......

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LOL I was thinking the samething. I can't imagine David "Pimp Daddy" Stern will let this kind of inside info circulate.

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Any player who is determined to have committed a flop during the regular season will be subject to the following:

Violation 1: Warning
Violation 2: $5,000 fine
Violation 3: $10,000 fine
Violation 4: $15,000 fine
Violation 5: $30,000 fine

If a player violates the anti-flopping rule six times or more, he will be subject to discipline that is reasonable under the circumstances, including an increased fine and/or suspension.

The league will announce at a later date a separate set of penalties for flopping that will apply during the playoffs.

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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/ey...-flopping-rule

I like that they are trying to "stop the flop" but thats not enough.
An NBA player will laugh at a $5,000 fine.
I feel you should get a foul called on you during the game. Maybe if it starts costing teams points / games it'll change.
1 warning, 2nd flop in the game your opponent gets 2 shots.

Fining after the fact does not stop them from flopping. If it effects the game they will keep doing it regardless. They need the refs to call in DURING THE GAMES for it to have any chance of it actually changing for the better.

I agree. I see nothing wrong with reviewing a play to make sure it was a "flop" during the game. If they review and find it was indeed a flop call a foul! That's the only thing i think that will curb it.

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Not a huge change
The worst thing about these rules changes is that they are unlikely to change much. It's a very timid step, which is welcome news for those nervous about the rules existing at all. These rules aren't designed to change much.

To understand, consider the league's position. The problem the NBA needs to solve is not how to eliminate every flop from the game. The problem they're trying to solve is how to keep the league from looking foolish in the media and online day in and day out. They acted on this issue once that became a daily reality, through Jeff Van Gundy's routine rants on game broadcasts, #FlopoftheNight, and a growing class of "wow that was a whopper of a flop" chatter.

The flop talk didn't just get people talking about something embarrassing. It got people talking, and showing video of, something where the league was both blatantly in the wrong and entirely impotent to do anything about it.

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http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...pping-strategy

NBPA to file grievance, labor charge over flopping fines

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The National Basketball Players Association said Wednesday it will file a grievance and unfair labor practices charge against the NBA over new disciplinary guidelines aimed at curtailing flopping.

"The NBA is not permitted to unilaterally impose new economic discipline against the players without first bargaining with the union," executive director Billy Hunter said in a statement.

Earlier Wednesday, the NBA announced a new fine schedule for flopping, the practice of tricking the official into calling a foul by exaggerating contract. Under the guidelines being challenged by the union, the league said players would receive a warning for the first flop, followed by fines of $5,000 for the second offense, $10,000 for the third, $15,000 for the fourth and $30,000 for the fifth. Beyond that, players would be subject to increased discipline at the league's discretion, including higher fines and/or suspension.

Hunter called the new rules "without precedent in our sport or any other sport," and characterized the penalties as "a vague and arbitrary overreaction and overreach by the commissioner's office."

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http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/ke...flopping-fines

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Larry Coon ‏@LarryCoon
Today the NBA announced there will be fines for flopping. In related news, Vlade Divac was retroactively fined $100 trillion.

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Mark Cuban unsure about new rule

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Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban, an often vocal critic of NBA officiating over the years, believes the league's new plan to fine repeated floppers could have "unintended consequences."

The plan calls for players to get a warning the first time the league determines they flop in an attempt to influence a foul call, then be fined $5,000 for a second violation. The fines increase to $10,000 for a third offense, $15,000 for a fourth and $30,000 for the fifth. Six or more could lead to a suspension.

Cuban is uncertain whether the fine system will improve the on-court product.

"It depends on whether or not it changes how flopping in game is called," Cuban replied in an email from Berlin, Germany, where the Mavericks are playing an exhibition game this weekend. "If it just causes the refs to give floppers the benefit of the doubt knowing the league can deal with it after the fact, it could have some unintended consequences.

"A big question is going to be how much depth of explanation is going to be given when a fine is [assessed] and whether or not the league will enforce teams paying the fines for the players who get caught flopping."

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http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/...-flopping-rule

Wow, people earning millions in a year will really be scared of losing 5 grands. Reeeeeeeeeeally. Why don't they take away the ridicolous fines and start suspending players for multiple games - without pay. I'm sure that'd work much better

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Originally Posted by Jujube

Wow, people earning millions in a year will really be scared of losing 5 grands. Reeeeeeeeeeally. Why don't they take away the ridicolous fines and start suspending players for multiple games - without pay. I'm sure that'd work much better

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Some one else did some math (can't vouch for accuracy cuz I'm lazy) and found that if a guy gets fined for flopping every fourth game, he will amass $500,000 in fines. That is a ton of money.

I like it, hit them hard. First fine 10k, 2ND 25k, 3Rd 40k, 4th offense 40k and a suspension. I bet that would finally rid that {mod edit-unnecessary} from the league.

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Originally Posted by Jujube

Wow, people earning millions in a year will really be scared of losing 5 grands. Reeeeeeeeeeally. Why don't they take away the ridicolous fines and start suspending players for multiple games - without pay. I'm sure that'd work much better

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Did you read the whole thing? It starts at 5k and then increases each time up to 30k, Even to millionaires 30k is $$$ they do not want to give back too frequently. 6 or more could lead to suspensions. I think everyone would agree that players like CP3, Manu and Reggie Evans flop (very blatantly) way more than 6 times a year. This is a good step in the right direction.

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"I never looked at myself as a big flopper," Nowitzki told the Dallas Morning News while the Mavericks are practicing in Germany. "If you play me physical then, obviously, I've got to sell the call and get to the (free throw) line. That's just part of the game. We'll have to see how they enforce that.

"I think it's a bunch of crap to be honest with you. Are they going to come back after a game and fine you for flopping? That's tough to do, to me."

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"Hey, sometimes they put in new rules, and you look and you say, 'Hey, this rule really helped our sport,'" Nowitzki told the Morning News. "And some rules don't and they get thrown out pretty quick because they're not enforceable.

"We'll see how it goes and how guys adjust. I don't think it's a big deal. We'll just play the regular game like we always have. I'm not really worried about anything. I'm just going to go out there like I always play."

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http://espn.go.com/dallas/nba/story/...-flopping-rule

Says the man that caused a "STOP THE FLOP" chant in the arena during the playoffs......

Highly recommend you watch NBA's official explanation of the flop penalties: dmmx2.nba.com/videourlredire…

— Zach Lowe (@ZachLowe_NBA) October 6, 2012

Pretty funny instructional video to the NBA refs :D.

its not ideal but its a start...you have to figure if the NBA doesnt see this changing the flopping they will revamp it and make it more harsh. its a start

correct me if i'm wrong but doesnt the NBA PA have to approve it as well? you cant just start at 50K fines a flop, they'd never agree to it..... start off small and see where it goes from there

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

ee

I guarantee if the refs only call for sure fouls these guys would stop behaving like they are made of feathers.

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That's the real heart of the issue. There is far too much ticky-tack officiating, which has led to guys playing the officials as much as their opponents.

Jarrett Jack, you have been WARNED!

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Originally Posted by LouisianaPride

correct me if i'm wrong but doesnt the NBA PA have to approve it as well? you cant just start at 50K fines a flop, they'd never agree to it..... start off small and see where it goes from there

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Since the punishments are fines rather than fouls, I could see that being the case. Although I personally don't think the NBPA really has any issue with fines for flopping... they would just clearly want to bargain for something else in return.

We'll see, but obviously something has to be done about the blatant flopping. The video even showed that most flopping won't be penalized since it's not flopping that is the issue, it's the theatrics involved with some of the flopping. It's just a major annoyance and has to be removed from the game.

Elizabeth NJ?? LOL thats literally 5 minutes from my house

And im glad they are doing something for this crap, i hate flopping