Game Day Thread! Pelicans vs Trail Blazers 12/20/14

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Originally Posted by djpaul89

Well I can't take you seriously then. We run plenty of horns sets, run great down screen plays for AD, roll-replacement sets with AD/Asik and Ryno, etc.

To say we always run street ball offense speaks to your lack of basketball knowledge.

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Like other people have said, our sets are very simple and easy for defenses to pick up. Talent is the main reason why we score points. Setting down screens is something I did freshman year of high school. That is not complicated nor should it be considered an offensive set. I know Monty has "schemes" but he doesn't utilize them for whatever reason. Could be bc players like tyreke are so good at what they do that they just break up the offense to get to the rim. Also, much of our offense is run through AD via pick and Pop, post ups, and pick and rolls. Is that our offensive scheme? I would say it could be considered a "scheme" but for the most part it is not, and it's just simple way of utilizing the offensive fire power we have. If we had a legit scheme or sets that we ran consistently this team would not be performing the way they do plain and simple. This team has wayyyyyyy too much talent.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

Would you call Golden States offense glorified streetball? Because its not.

There is just a disconnect between what Monty preaches and what the product on the floor is. He has preached pace for years now but we always end up in the bottom of the league in pace. We preach unselfish play and making the extra pass but last year we were the second heaviest isolation team in the league and I have to imagine we are high again. We have preached taking advantage of our shooters but we are in the bottom part of the league in 3PA again.

For the second year we are the only team that doesnt have at least one player average 1 secondary assist a game. The Pelicans offense rarely makes the opposing defense do any work off the ball and so defenses only concern themselves with the point of attack and nearby players Especially late in games.

What my thought was(and it is just that, a thought) is that taking a different approach to the offensive side of the basketball could create more confidence, consistency and save both physical and mental energy for better executing on the defensive side of the ball.

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I don't disagree with you at all. We take way too long to get into our sets and most of the time it seems like our offense devolves into one underutilized pick and roll resulting in an iso that rarely yields a good shot. But I think the excuse that this is because our team is too young to grasp offensive concepts is incorrect. Definitely on Monty, but I don't think the players are anywhere near blameless either.

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Originally Posted by jawznola

Every team runs screen plays and pick and rolls. You can't sit here and tell me we have a system as sophisticated as the Spurs, guys like Splitter Diago and such come in and play a defined role immediately. Certain college teams have systems from great coaches, we don't have one, no creativity in this offense, get your eyes checked.

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Lol. Nice straw man argument. Now you admit that we have a system, but now you change your argument to say that our system isn't as sophisticated as the Spurs. You know, because if your favorite NBA team can't do what the defending champs and top coach of all time can do, clearly there are major issues.

By the way, here's some more of that street ball system that you were talking about:

Breakdown of our motion offense, probably our most common sets. You'll see that some of those AD downscreen plays that I mentioned from that set.



Breakdown of our roll-replacement sets



General offensive breakdown with commentary




Featured #3 on BBALLBREAKDOWN's horns plays of the week a few weeks ago



But Monty has no system tho. Open YOUR eyes sir.

There are some valid criticisms of Monty. Situational hard-hedging, not posting up our guards enough (shout out to Bronco), and others. But some of you just spout hot air BS like he's not as good as Pop (he's not but who is?), doesn't have a system (WTF) and think you won't get called out by the smart posters here who keep perspective and a level head.

Either you don't have the basketball knowledge to truly know what you are watching on the court, or you just let your emotional anti-Monty bias cloud your judgement, causing you to just see what you want to see.

I said DAMN!

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Originally Posted by djpaul89

Lol. Nice straw man argument. Now you admit that we have a system, but now you change your argument to say that our system isn't as sophisticated as the Spurs. You know, because if your favorite NBA team can't do what the defending champs and top coach of all time can do, clearly there are major issues.

By the way, here's some more of that street ball system that you were talking about:

Breakdown of our motion offense, probably our most common sets. You'll see that some of those AD downscreen plays that I mentioned from that set.



Breakdown of our roll-replacement sets



General offensive breakdown with commentary




Featured #3 on BBALLBREAKDOWN's horns plays of the week a few weeks ago



But Monty has no system tho. Open YOUR eyes sir.

There are some valid criticisms of Monty. Situational hard-hedging, not posting up our guards enough (shout out to Bronco), and others. But some of you just spout hot air BS like he's not as good as Pop (he's not but who is?), doesn't have a system (WTF) and think you won't get called out by the smart posters here who keep perspective and a level head.

Either you don't have the basketball knowledge to truly know what you are watching on the court, or you just let your emotional anti-Monty bias cloud your judgement, causing you to just see what you want to see.

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Very nice. Like the videos. There is something I'd like to know. Do you think Monty is not responsible for the defensive woes we have? Maybe we can say we are a young team and most young teams aren't as effective on defense.

It seems like we are playing an aggressive team defense and it isn't working. What happened to man2man defense or zone defenses? There's a lack of communication on the court. Do you notice this?

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Originally Posted by djpaul89

Lol. Nice straw man argument. Now you admit that we have a system, but now you change your argument to say that our system isn't as sophisticated as the Spurs. You know, because if your favorite NBA team can't do what the defending champs and top coach of all time can do, clearly there are major issues.

By the way, here's some more of that street ball system that you were talking about:

Breakdown of our motion offense, probably our most common sets. You'll see that some of those AD downscreen plays that I mentioned from that set.



Breakdown of our roll-replacement sets



General offensive breakdown with commentary




Featured #3 on BBALLBREAKDOWN's horns plays of the week a few weeks ago



But Monty has no system tho. Open YOUR eyes sir.

There are some valid criticisms of Monty. Situational hard-hedging, not posting up our guards enough (shout out to Bronco), and others. But some of you just spout hot air BS like he's not as good as Pop (he's not but who is?), doesn't have a system (WTF) and think you won't get called out by the smart posters here who keep perspective and a level head.

Either you don't have the basketball knowledge to truly know what you are watching on the court, or you just let your emotional anti-Monty bias cloud your judgement, causing you to just see what you want to see.

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The argument should not be that the PELS don't have a system or run offensive sets.... What you will see if you watch enough of the videos is a team that lacks decisiveness and does not run their sets well enough that it's very obvious that they are well coached.

Monty may not be a bad coach but he's not as good as people want to believe. The personnel of this team is probably the biggest problem but there are coaching problems IMO.

It's not fair to compare to the spurs but I'm posting this to show the obvious difference between the two teams. Monty has had 5 years to put this team together now if we miss the playoffs by a lot he's going to get fired. Mainly for the problems we keep having on defense. Watch this video of the spurs. They are decisive, faster, more fluid, and you know what... That's coaching. Pop made them better and he'd do the same with this squad. Monty doesn't need to be pop but he needs to win and get more out of his players.

http://youtu.be/rQK8YUpRSsc

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

The argument should not be that the PELS don't have a system or run offensive sets.... What you will see if you watch enough of the videos is a team that lacks decisiveness and does not run their sets well enough that it's very obvious that they are well coached.

Monty may not be a bad coach but he's not as good as people want to believe. The personnel of this team is probably the biggest problem but there are coaching problems IMO.

It's not fair to compare to the spurs but I'm posting this to show the obvious difference between the two teams. Monty has had 5 years to put this team together now if we miss the playoffs by a lot he's going to get fired. Mainly for the problems we keep having on defense. Watch this video of the spurs. They are decisive, faster, more fluid, and you know what... That's coaching. Pop made them better and he'd do the same with this squad. Monty doesn't need to be pop but he needs to win and get more out of his players.

http://youtu.be/rQK8YUpRSsc

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Not to mention that Pop gets this type of production from his 10th-15th man on the roster.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

Very nice. Like the videos. There is something I'd like to know. Do you think Monty is not responsible for the defensive woes we have? Maybe we can say we are a young team and most young teams aren't as effective on defense.

It seems like we are playing an aggressive team defense and it isn't working. What happened to man2man defense or zone defenses? There's a lack of communication on the court. Do you notice this?

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I think it's a combination of personnel and coaching...no sole factor.

And you're right...youth plays a huge factor. It's not a be all excuse and can get tired, but it is a real factor. 4th youngest team in the league. Most of the other playoff teams in the West have core units that have been together for multiple seasons. This is pretty much year 1 for us since the core only played 90 something minutes together last year.

As far as the defense, all defenses are based in either man to man or zone, and like most NBA teams the majority of the time we're in man to man. Individual schemes come down to how teams choose to play help defense, doubling the post or not, defending the pick and roll, and what will be given up (paint, 3pt, mid-range). I can't point out much as far as a specific overall scheme, but we seem to like to help the post a lot and switch up our pick and roll coverages depending on matchup. We normally try to ICE our pick and rolls on the wings and funnel the guards to our bigs and the baseline and away from the screen, but despite those attempts we still often allow middle penetration from the pick and roll and that's where a lot of problems can arise.

I haven't noticed much specifically on communication, so I can't say.

On the personnel front, our team doesn't have many good-great overall defenders. Encouraging though, our lineups with Jrue/Asik/AD and Jrue/Asik have really good defensive efficiency stats according to one of the Pelican blog articles a week or two ago. I'll try to find it. So when our best defenders are out on the court, we've actually been pretty solid. It's just inconsistent since more often than not all three of those guys aren't on the court at the same time.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

The argument should not be that the PELS don't have a system or run offensive sets.... What you will see if you watch enough of the videos is a team that lacks decisiveness and does not run their sets well enough that it's very obvious that they are well coached.

Monty may not be a bad coach but he's not as good as people want to believe. The personnel of this team is probably the biggest problem but there are coaching problems IMO.

It's not fair to compare to the spurs but I'm posting this to show the obvious difference between the two teams. Monty has had 5 years to put this team together now if we miss the playoffs by a lot he's going to get fired. Mainly for the problems we keep having on defense. Watch this video of the spurs. They are decisive, faster, more fluid, and you know what... That's coaching. Pop made them better and he'd do the same with this squad. Monty doesn't need to be pop but he needs to win and get more out of his players.

[url]http://youtu.be/rQK8YUpRSscurl]

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Here's the thing. Just about all the posters you see on here defending Monty aren't Monty lovers per se and have said as much. No one has said that he's God's gift to coaching, but when guys like embreno, buzzman, etc try to come on here and act like he's God's CURSE to coaching, they need to get checked on that.

Rivers, even though he played well, didn't look to distribute at all until the game was over over. I'm glad he is scoring but you can't have this second unit watching Rivers try to score. It doesn't seem to help us at all during most games.

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Originally Posted by djpaul89

Here's the thing. Just about all the posters you see on here defending Monty aren't Monty lovers per se and have said as much. No one has said that he's God's gift to coaching, but when guys like embreno, buzzman, etc try to come on here and act like he's God's CURSE to coaching, they need to get checked on that.

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this 100%. If Monty was replaced, I wouldn't shed a tear. But when people blatantly make false statements, or go out of their way to compare two completely different teams/coaches/systems, its ridiculous. we are a young team. not just age, but minutes together and games played. it's not an excuse for anything, it is just a reality.

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It's not fair to compare to the spurs but I'm posting this to show the obvious difference between the two teams. Monty has had 5 years to put this team together now if we miss the playoffs by a lot he's going to get fired. Mainly for the problems we keep having on defense. Watch this video of the spurs. They are decisive, faster, more fluid, and you know what... That's coaching. Pop made them better and he'd do the same with this squad. Monty doesn't need to be pop but he needs to win and get more out of his players.

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I've posted this in another thread with different context, but it is applicable here. Eg is the longest tenured player on this team with 4 years, but only 127 games. AD, Ryno, Rivers have been here 3 years. Ajinca, Babbitt, Evans, Holiday, Withey 2 years. Asik, Salmons, Fredette, smith, cunningham all under a year.

Total games played by our players (current) as pelicans since 2011/12 = 984 Games / 25321 minutes
Total games played by Spurs players (current) as Spurs since 2011/12 = 2318 games / 52006 minutes

Total games played by Spurs players (current) as Spurs since 1997/98 = 5154 games / 139002 minutes

Total games coached by Pop = 1438
Total games coached by Monty = 338

Pop, Duncan, and Parker have been playing/coaching longer than we have been an official franchise.

We are currently sitting at .500 in the stacked west. We aren't that bad. We had a horrible game, it is not the end of the world. of course we need to improve a bunch, you would expect that of a team that has barely played together consistently. AD, Ryno and EG are our only players with over 4000 minutes played for the pelicans. Rivers 3300, Reke 2880, Jrue 2031. Ajinca 1129, everyone else under 1000. The guys need minutes together. They need to learn each other better, learn to communicate better, and they need to develop trust in one anothers abilities, and they need to learn to play within Monty's system. Monty also needs to figure out how to make the most out of what he has been given by Dell. These things don't happen overnight. Will it ever work? I don't know, but at least be realistic about who we are as a team and where we should be. We lost to Portland, they are currently 22-6 sitting 2nd in the West. We were pegged as outsiders for MAYBE making the 8. We are sitting right where we should be.

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Originally Posted by djpaul89

Lol. Nice straw man argument. Now you admit that we have a system, but now you change your argument to say that our system isn't as sophisticated as the Spurs. You know, because if your favorite NBA team can't do what the defending champs and top coach of all time can do, clearly there are major issues.

By the way, here's some more of that street ball system that you were talking about:

Breakdown of our motion offense, probably our most common sets. You'll see that some of those AD downscreen plays that I mentioned from that set.



Breakdown of our roll-replacement sets



General offensive breakdown with commentary




Featured #3 on BBALLBREAKDOWN's horns plays of the week a few weeks ago



But Monty has no system tho. Open YOUR eyes sir.

There are some valid criticisms of Monty. Situational hard-hedging, not posting up our guards enough (shout out to Bronco), and others. But some of you just spout hot air BS like he's not as good as Pop (he's not but who is?), doesn't have a system (WTF) and think you won't get called out by the smart posters here who keep perspective and a level head.

Either you don't have the basketball knowledge to truly know what you are watching on the court, or you just let your emotional anti-Monty bias cloud your judgement, causing you to just see what you want to see.

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Every basketball team in the world does these sets. It doesn't mean we have a system sir. It means we run plays that kids in HIGH SCHOOL also run, that's offensive basketball, period. Duke has a system, Syracuse has a system, Butler has a system, etc. Spurs have a virtual PLUG AND PLAY system, it matters not who's on the team, Popp will get the most out of the guy. Just admit that we don't have that. Don't show me a video with 40 pick and rolls/pick and pops and tell me this is a system.

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Originally Posted by jawznola

Every basketball team in the world does these sets. It doesn't mean we have a system sir. It means we run plays that kids in HIGH SCHOOL also run, that's offensive basketball, period. Duke has a system, Syracuse has a system, Butler has a system, etc. Spurs have a virtual PLUG AND PLAY system, it matters not who's on the team, Popp will get the most out of the guy. Just admit that we don't have that. Don't show me a video with 40 pick and rolls/pick and pops and tell me this is a system.

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Why do we need to have an advanced system if we are already top 10 in the league in points per game? Why is it a bad thing to run a less complicated system if it is still effective? We are a young team. Monty said before the season he had only implemented about 30% of the plays he has because he was trying to make it easy for our guys to grasp.

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Originally Posted by jawznola

Every basketball team in the world does these sets. It doesn't mean we have a system sir. It means we run plays that kids in HIGH SCHOOL also run, that's offensive basketball, period. Duke has a system, Syracuse has a system, Butler has a system, etc. Spurs have a virtual PLUG AND PLAY system, it matters not who's on the team, Popp will get the most out of the guy. Just admit that we don't have that. Don't show me a video with 40 pick and rolls/pick and pops and tell me this is a system.

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Your original assertion was that the Pelicans just play streetball. Now you are reaching to straw man and marginalize what they do. And for you to say that the videos are nothing but pick and rolls and pops reveals yet again that you're just seeing what you want to see and being stubborn...or that you barely watched at all...or that you don't have the intelligence to realize that a set offense with multiple reads, options, and variations to constantly put your players in positions to play to their strengths comprises part of a team's system.

But wait...let me burn your argument even more. The Pelicans just run basic high school plays. Let's assume this to be true for now. If true, realize that almost every NBA team runs their own variation of these actions: horns, dribble handoffs, down screening, etc. Just tailored and tweaked to their own players' skills. And let's even use your beloved Spurs. Go to BBALLBREAKDOWN and you'll see Coach Nick give an entire breakdown on how the Spurs use heavy dribble handoffs and down screening that, if the initial options break down, often flow into pick and roll/pops. But no, it's just us and high schoolers that do what the Pels do. Get out of here.

You were owned in your assertion and now you're reaching to save face. So let me resume not taking you seriously and ignore you from here on out.

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Originally Posted by djpaul89

Your original assertion was that the Pelicans just play streetball. Now you are reaching to straw man and marginalize what they do. And for you to say that the videos are nothing but pick and rolls and pops reveals yet again that you're just seeing what you want to see and being stubborn...or that you barely watched at all...or that you don't have the intelligence to realize that a set offense with multiple reads, options, and variations to constantly put your players in positions to play to their strengths comprises part of a team's system.

But wait...let me burn your argument even more. The Pelicans just run basic high school plays. Let's assume this to be true for now. If true, realize that almost every NBA team runs their own variation of these actions: horns, dribble handoffs, down screening, etc. Just tailored and tweaked to their own players' skills. And let's even use your beloved Spurs. Go to BBALLBREAKDOWN and you'll see Coach Nick give an entire breakdown on how the Spurs use heavy dribble handoffs and down screening that, if the initial options break down, often flow into pick and roll/pops. But no, it's just us and high schoolers that do what the Pels do. Get out of here.

You were owned in your assertion and now you're reaching to save face. So let me resume not taking you seriously and ignore you from here on out.

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You're just tearing them up.. Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity.

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Originally Posted by djpaul89

Your original assertion was that the Pelicans just play streetball. Now you are reaching to straw man and marginalize what they do. And for you to say that the videos are nothing but pick and rolls and pops reveals yet again that you're just seeing what you want to see and being stubborn...or that you barely watched at all...or that you don't have the intelligence to realize that a set offense with multiple reads, options, and variations to constantly put your players in positions to play to their strengths comprises part of a team's system.

But wait...let me burn your argument even more. The Pelicans just run basic high school plays. Let's assume this to be true for now. If true, realize that almost every NBA team runs their own variation of these actions: horns, dribble handoffs, down screening, etc. Just tailored and tweaked to their own players' skills. And let's even use your beloved Spurs. Go to BBALLBREAKDOWN and you'll see Coach Nick give an entire breakdown on how the Spurs use heavy dribble handoffs and down screening that, if the initial options break down, often flow into pick and roll/pops. But no, it's just us and high schoolers that do what the Pels do. Get out of here.

You were owned in your assertion and now you're reaching to save face. So let me resume not taking you seriously and ignore you from here on out.

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Every football team in America also has a run game, a passing game that may or may not have a shotgun offense, shingleback, iform, etc. Does that mean that Evangel High School and the Saints have the exact same or even similar system? Not at all. But it means that this is what football teams do, line up run the ball, and line up and throw the ball. However it's obvious that the Saints have a system that is distinct and unique to this particular team. Pick ar it's obvious that the Saints have a system that is distinct and unique to this particular team and it is MUCH MUCH more sophisticated considering they are a team comprised of professional atheletes. You're just searching for confirmation bias kid.